Wholesale printing, charging for waste?

[CentralSigns]

Charging for waste sounds kind of cheap. Better to charge more for job to cover waste. Some good planning and layout can decrease waste in some instances but in others it may be unavoidable. Try using waste for another product you can make or create. I use waste lexan to make mini hockey sticks to give to the local Junior A team, they give to a chosen kid thats gets to be a team member for the day. I also fabricate other things out of it. Waste vinyl is cut into decals, this waste includes material that was printed and got a streak in it or another defect.

That I'll be $600 for your product and $150 for the material I wasted. Hope that's OK. What do you think?

 

[cfbeagle]

This

is a stupid thread!

 

[sjm]

Charging for waste sounds kind of cheap. Better to charge more for job to cover waste. Some good planning and layout can decrease waste in some instances but in others it may be unavoidable. Try using waste for another product you can make or create. I use waste lexan to make mini hockey sticks to give to the local Junior A team, they give to a chosen kid thats gets to be a team member for the day. I also fabricate other things out of it. Waste vinyl is cut into decals, this waste includes material that was printed and got a streak in it or another defect.

That I'll be $600 for your product and $150 for the material I wasted. Hope that's OK. What do you think?

You make some good points and I think us as we in the business of producing graphics always look for ways to reduce waste.

Unfortunately no matter what planning you take in advance there are somethings you just can't plan for. For example I think we as graphics providers have materials and suppliers we trust and would recommend and warrant that product because we have had repeated success.

Proceeding along those lines you are faced with a job that calls for this product you trust but it's only available in a 54" width.

The artwork you have to output contains a couple of lines of text ie. Raw Raw Raw Sis Boom Baw and each line of text is 38" tall. In addition there is a logo that measures 90" tall and the finished size of the overall design is 35' in length. Further more it has to be inkjet printed and then contour cut as cutting the text in a commercially available colour is not viable because it does not match the logo that requires inkjet printing because of gradients and other things.

Would you suggest I switch to a supplier who carries a narrower version of another vinyl but have no prior experience with and express to said client he is own, if all fails?

I guess if you are in it for the short term you would elect to go with the other supplier and take you chances. It's kinda like a pay me now or pay me later proposition.

 

[gbarker]

Judging by the responses to the subject at hand apparently we do things differently. We don't charge for waste. I consider waste a part of doing business.

For banners - we charge by actual print size. As stated above, why should my customer have to pay b/c I either don't have the proper size material for the job or don't happen to have the workflow to make full use of the material width. If you order a 3x8 banner you are charged for the print area and hems. Not 54" x 105" for example.

Calendared vinyl - Same as above. As for decals, we will place them as close together as you want to save vinyl. If you want 15 decals but because of media option I can print 17 and use just as much material, you are going to get 17 decals but only charged for 15. Basically if it is going in the trash I'd rather print a few more and send them as extras. To me that's customer service, providing more than what's expected.

Wrap material - I try to shy away from small jobs using expensive vinyl but how often does one ask for a 20" x 12' piece in IJ180 or similar. I also have a minimum that helps cover some waste on these jobs.

As for quotes, I am a firm believer in you need to know your cost before I print and before you price your job.

 

[gbarker]

Not really. Consider having to produce an 8' x 25' banner, with pockets top and bottom.

That would need to be run on 10' wide material. That's approximately 30 sq. ft of wasted material.

It's not unreasonable to charge for waste and the educated client understands this.

That wasted material cost you $5.70 @ 0.19sf for banner material, can you not eat that for a +/-$400.00 banner?

 

[jasonx]

Your charging for waste whether your explicitly include it as an extra charge or not.

 

[CentralSigns]

Unfortunately no matter what planning you take in advance there are somethings you just can't plan for.

Proceeding along those lines you are faced with a job that calls for this product you trust but it's only available in a 54" width.

Would you suggest I switch to a supplier who carries a narrower version of another vinyl but have no prior experience with and express to said client he is own, if all fails?

I guess if you are in it for the short term you would elect to go with the other supplier and take you chances. It's kinda like a pay me now or pay me later proposition.

I am not saying change suppliers, actually this doesn't relate to my suppliers at all. Sometimes waste in inevitable, what I am saying is, waste should be built into your price. If you use 10 inches of banner material to produce a 8 in banner at whatever length, then I would charge for the 10 inches. Having said this any product you can make out of the waste becomes free material after this.

Some products can't be made without some waste. Roll stock Lexan for instance always needs cut to fit into an existing sign face. I bet I waste 12 inches of Lexan every piece I cut lengthwise. In addition certain suppliers cut if off the roll different ways. One supplier I know always makes an exact square on the ends, the other is always out of square. dealing with supplier 2 I am forced to add 2 extra feet every time I order from them.

So a customer comes to you to get a 4' by 8' sign. You say that it can be done for $6400 for instance. He goes to your competitor and is quoted the $6600. You are the lowest price there's no history said customer goes with you saves $200. Do you say, oh I forgot, I charge for waste that will be an additional $500. I would be pissed, if you told me this afterwards.

Bottom line customer pays the company with the lowest price unless there's history, but that's another bag of worms. Waste is built into the profit formula of any business, you can't charge for it in the opened, that just looks slimy. ya leave it off the invoice and bump the products price to cover it.

 

[sjm]

I am not saying change suppliers, actually this doesn't relate to my suppliers at all. Sometimes waste in inevitable, what I am saying is, waste should be built into your price. If you use 10 inches of banner material to produce a 8 in banner at whatever length, then I would charge for the 10 inches. Having said this any product you can make out of the waste becomes free material after this.

Some products can't be made without some waste. Roll stock Lexan for instance always needs cut to fit into an existing sign face. I bet I waste 12 inches of Lexan every piece I cut lengthwise. In addition certain suppliers cut if off the roll different ways. One supplier I know always makes an exact square on the ends, the other is always out of square. dealing with supplier 2 I am forced to add 2 extra feet every time I order from them.

So a customer comes to you to get a 4' by 8' sign. You say that it can be done for $6400 for instance. He goes to your competitor and is quoted the $6600. You are the lowest price there's no history said customer goes with you saves $200. Do you say, oh I forgot, I charge for waste that will be an additional $500. I would be pissed, if you told me this afterwards.

Bottom line customer pays the company with the lowest price unless there's history, but that's another bag of worms. Waste is built into the profit formula of any business, you can't charge for it in the opened, that just looks slimy. ya leave it off the invoice and bump the products price to cover it.

CentralSigns I think you missed my point in that there is no magic formula that you can apply on the wholesale side. Of course if a trades person requires a direct print to Sintra for example say a Qty 1 - 4' x 2' I think it's only fair to charge him or her that. The remaining 6' I can use for some other project. Seems a fair practice yes?

On the flip side if trades person requires Qty 50, 30" x 40" signs printed directly to Sintra, how should I charge?

 

[royster13]

What it costs anyone to do a job is not relative to the selling price.....Selling price is based on what the market will bear.....If your "buddy" down the road charges based on square feet of material without consideration for waste it will be hard for you to charge based for square feet allowing for waste...Now how much profit you make will be based on how well you manage waste....

 

[jasonx]

CentralSigns I think you missed my point in that there is no magic formula that you can apply on the wholesale side. Of course if a trades person requires a direct print to Sintra for example say a Qty 1 - 4' x 2' I think it's only fair to charge him or her that. The remaining 6' I can use for some other project. Seems a fair practice yes?

On the flip side if trades person requires Qty 50, 30" x 40" signs printed directly to Sintra, how should I charge?

Price = Cost of materials + labour + overheads + profit.

Don't see why there is a difference between retail and wholesale its business either way.

 

[sjm]

Price = Cost of materials + labour + overheads + profit.

Don't see why there is a difference between retail and wholesale its business either way.

Sure, at the wholesale level if I charged for example retail prices, trades people would scream bloody murder.

Though if the trades person didn't need wholesale they would purchase their own equipment.

 

[Techman]

IF you charge the right amount then the cost of materials is a very small percentage. Then you have no worries about that extra 2 inches lost on a job.

 

[sjm]

IF you charge the right amount then the cost of materials is a very small percentage. Then you have no worries about that extra 2 inches lost on a job.

Yes, no one would argue over a few inches. Though that's not what we are discussing here, I think. How would you handle 30-40% waste? For example do you eat that cost or charge for it?

 

[bob]

Here in this shop materials prices are calculated based on media unrolled, not necessarily used. If I have to cut a 4' line of 6" text, 5' of vinyl is charged. For, say, a 1'x10' banner, 11' of 36" banner material is charged. If the media is not something normally stocked, the client gets to buy either a roll or, if available by the yard, as many yards as is necessary.

For substrates that are not normally stocked, the client gets to buy an entire sheet unless our supplier offers cut goods. For substrates that are normally stocked, they are usually figured at whole, half, or quarter sheet, depending, regardless of actual size of the job.

Thus there is no discrete waste calculation, everything is accounted for via the pricing model.

That's just for materials, the price for the actual job is calculated independently and added to the materials price.

 

[jasonx]

Sure, at the wholesale level if I charged for example retail prices, trades people would scream bloody murder.

Though if the trades person didn't need wholesale they would purchase their own equipment.

Your confusing pricing with business models. The pricing formula is the same no matter what product or what market.

Now if your comparing wholesale markets to retail, wholesale markets usually work on the premise of lower profit margins offset by larger quantities being exchanged.

 

[jasonx]

Here in this shop materials prices are calculated based on media unrolled, not necessarily used. If I have to cut a 4' line of 6" text, 5' of vinyl is charged. For, say, a 1'x10' banner, 11' of 36" banner material is charged. If the media is not something normally stocked, the client gets to buy either a roll or, if available by the yard, as many yards as is necessary.

For substrates that are not normally stocked, the client gets to buy an entire sheet unless our supplier offers cut goods. For substrates that are normally stocked, they are usually figured at whole, half, or quarter sheet, depending, regardless of actual size of the job.

Thus there is no discrete waste calculation, everything is accounted for via the pricing model.

That's just for materials, the price for the actual job is calculated independently and added to the materials price.

Your correct waste is an opportunity cost.

 

[sjm]

Your confusing pricing with business models. The pricing formula is the same no matter what product or what market.

Now if your comparing wholesale markets to retail, wholesale markets usually work on the premise of lower profit margins offset by larger quantities being exchanged.

No we agree on the cost model. This thread I thought was about wholesale pricing. i.e. selling to the trade at reduced margin levels because they bring to the table something extra.

Perhaps I misunderstood your POV?

 

[Rooster]

Wholesale markets usually work on the premise of lower profit margins offset by larger quantities being exchanged.

This is probably the reason why the original poster is upset. One would expect a wholesale trade provider to have enough volume that they can gang up enough jobs together to minimize waste.

Then again the original poster never mentioned the job size or anything specific about it.

Personally adding something to an invoice like "wastage" seems petty and too much like a cash grab after the fact. Like being hit up with a RIP charge that wasn't itemized in the estimate.

I wouldn't be happy to see it on an invoice, nor would I add something like that to the invoices I send to my customers. That doesn't mean I don't charge for the same thing. I just wouldn't ever itemize it on the invoices because of the message I think it sends.

 

[CentralSigns]

I kind of see your point a little with the custom order issues. Generally if I get an order like that, I charge for the complete material cost, or take it into the profit formula. Although I give my volume customers a good deal I would have to reconsider on a special high waste custom order. The volume customer probably all ready knows the waste is larger and cost is higher, some times the customer has to pay what it's worth and that volume customer will always come back cause he knows you'll give him a good fair price. The customer never sees this waste on an invoice of any kind.

I occasionally get orders for a small amount of reflective material. Say like 8 feet by 10 inches, and am only able to get 24 in rolls. The other 14 inches could be considered waste. This is your example somewhat. What I'll do is cut my lettering in the cheapest material I can get full length. This provides me a template for the expensive letters. From here I will cut out all the individual letters in the expensive material as tight together as is possible taking up the whole 24 inches. Usually the letters will all fit in very little space on the 24 in material. From here I will move the letters over to the template and use just about a foot of more expensive material. It's all in how you create the waste, little or lots. I often wounder if the time was worth it.

 

[gbarker]

Here in this shop materials prices are calculated based on media unrolled, not necessarily used. If I have to cut a 4' line of 6" text, 5' of vinyl is charged. For, say, a 1'x10' banner, 11' of 36" banner material is charged. If the media is not something normally stocked, the client gets to buy either a roll or, if available by the yard, as many yards as is necessary.

I'm curious - Do you give your customer everything they paid for? Meaning, if you charge them for 11' of 36" banner material do you hand that over with their 1x10 banner? That's like having a substrate cut down and your supplier not giving you the drop but being charged for the entire sheet. Also why would your customer have to pay for 36" material instead of 24" or 30" which is readily available? They shouldn't have to pay because you don't stock the right size.

I just don't see how that is right. I'm not harping on your process I just don't agree with it. If it works for you then have at it.