Who's putting up the Sign?

[showcase 66]

I have a client that contacted me earlier today that wants me to make him a 2 post sign being 10' high but doesnt want me to pull permits or install it. I asked him who he had planned on putting it up for him and he wouldnt give me a name.

I told him it needed to be permitted so a licensed contractor needs to install it. He just said ya ya I know.

I also told him that I always look at the paper about new permits that are pulled and know when a new sign is being put up.

I have a feeling this guy wants to try and save some money by putting it up himself. If that is the case, I dont want anything coming back on me for not pulling the permit.

I am thinking of writing my proposal with an installation price and then take 100 bucks off saying that is the price without installation instead of giving him just a normal price for the sign itself.

Anyone have any input on the way I should handle the client? Maybe just say no thanks.

 

[Flame]

Why? Not your liablity. You are not installing the sign, so all liablity is on him to get permits. Don't see any way this could come back and bite you unless the customer got REALLY pissy and unreasonable.

Legally, I'd say you're fine.

 

[weaselboogie]

Why? Not your liablity. You are not installing the sign, so all liablity is on him to get permits. Don't see any way this could come back and bite you unless the customer got REALLY pissy and unreasonable.

Legally, I'd say you're fine.

Thats how I work too. I give the option of installing it, but I don't care what they do after it leaves the shop and I don't question them if they don't want me to do it.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Yeah I was thinking...

If you're not the guy who's putting it up... is it your responsibility whether or not he has a permit?

That's like a liquor store selling a bottle to a 35 year old... takes it home, and his kid takes a sip.

Your responsibility?

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Why? Not your liablity. You are not installing the sign, so all liablity is on him to get permits. Don't see any way this could come back and bite you unless the customer got REALLY pissy and unreasonable.

Legally, I'd say you're fine.

Even if the customer does get pissy and unreasonable....if someone else does the install, even though you made the sign, you are still out of the loop and it's none of your business or responsibility once the sign leaves your shop. You informed him of the need for a permit, etc., and he's fully aware so leave it be....otherwise you may just completely piss off a customer. Running a squeaky clean, up to snuff, completely legit, by the book operation is great but you are not the code compliance inspector and I bet you don't question where the money has been or how it was used before you get it or once it leaves your hands so why get in a fret about the install if you don't get that part of the job?

 

[klemgraphics]

I don't care what happens once it leaves here, I offer the install but if they decline I simply take their money and could care less how they install. I may make some recommendations but that's it. I really don't even care to do installs to be honest.

 

[cdiesel]

Zero liability for you unless you put it up.

 

[showcase 66]

I have sold people signs before that I was not the one to put it up but they have always been smaller signs that they are going to put up on the side of a building. A few years back, you could do an owner/builder but not anymore.
I am just worried that he will say I installed it for him.

 

[Border]

I just make a note on the invoice that says "installation not included" or Installation to be provided by customer".

-Done deal

 

[cdiesel]

If you're concerned about him saying you did it, just do what Doug said--mark the invoice stating you didn't install it.

 

[CentralSigns]

I would let him install it. Not your liability, it would be his or his installers. There is more money in making the sign, than installing it. We are looking at hiring a contract installer, for installs rather than taking the time our selves. We looked at the cost vs profit ratios of installing and found we lost money most installs. Well we still made money but only a fraction of what we did on the sign itself.

 

[Rick]

I would probably not get worried about the install, but, over here... and I thought in Arizona... you have to get engineering (and build the sign to that engineering) on a sign over 6 feet. That would be the only thing I would worry about (but I would have some statement like a release of liability or just a note saying you are supplying the sign, no install)

 

[showcase 66]

I would probably not get worried about the install, but, over here... and I thought in Arizona... you have to get engineering (and build the sign to that engineering) on a sign over 6 feet. That would be the only thing I would worry about (but I would have some statement like a release of liability or just a note saying you are supplying the sign, no install)

Engineering is not a problem if needed. (I am an engineer)

The city has never required any sign I have done to be engineered under 10'. Looked up the city code and actually sent an email to one of the building official for clarification.

I sent him a proposal with a statement that I am not installing and release of liability waiver for him to sign. Will see how that turns out tomorrow.

 

[Rick]

(I am an engineer)

I can see that!!!

 

[Gino]

I agree. As long as you include a statement that installation was by others, you should be fine. However, like Rick mentioned, around here, codes are different from one street to the next, not to mention from one town to the next, so we generally have to have all signs Okayed by the city council or codes department in order to begin production. Anything under 6 or 10 square feet seems to be alright, but once you get into signs going 8' or more into the air, you need authorization just to be able to produce the thing. This goes for wooden signs, electric or plastic..... they all fall under certain codes around here.

Be sure to get all the money ahead of time, in case he gets sited for an un-allowed sign without a permit. You could have to cough the money back up, if things go really wrong. Thing being.... you're the professional and you should know right from wrong..... thus why you're here asking, so why not be smart, call the codes people for the location of the sign and get all the particulars ??

Be prepared, don't get blind-sided by a cheap customer. They don't know your business..... or THE business.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

You need approval from the government to begin production? Did I read that right?

If you're responsible for the whole process up to installation, I can see why you'd wanna get approval before starting... but if you've been ordered to make something, is it your responsibility to check if they guy has a permit for what he's ordering? It's not like he's ordering a box of C4 or something...

Just saying... I've never heard of anything like that before... I feel for you guys - that must make this type of work very difficult at times. I don't work with structural stuff so I don't know - forgive my ignorance, it just seems really odd though.

 

[showcase 66]

Just got off the phone with him. He know wants me to make the sign and pull the permit for him but he will have his guy put the sign up. I told him I would fill the paperwork out and drop it off to the city but I need the contractors license of his guy to put as the contractor. He then said, No he wanted me to use all my info and his guy would put it up.
Not happening
Told him I would not do that and now after that comment, either I install the sign or he needs someone else to make it.

He got all pissed off saying he does this all the time with other places not just a sign. I explained to him the liability it puts me in if the sign falls down and hurts someone or someone's property. He still didnt get it.

Phone call ended with him slamming the phone down.
I guess it was warranted to have an un easy feeling about this guy.

 

[J Hill Designs]

yeah pulling permits for an install not done by you is risky business...

 

[TheSnowman]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. That's like sending someone else to go get your license for you. You don't need him as a customer. People that are this much work, aren't hardly EVER worth the amount of time that you quoted on the job because they are professional time wasters. There's a reason he called you instead of "the other guy that does it all the time"...because that guy doesn't really exist.

 

[Billct2]

Right move

 

[MikePro]

way to hold your ground! No reason you should put your neck on the line because the guy wants to save a hundred bucks.

What if you build the sign as a self-standing A-frame with sandbags/stakes? Need a permit for that?