Why do designers really not understand us sign people?

[Rick]

Maybe it's because you quoted it individually?
At one time AI couldn't do multiple pages/artboards and maybe the Designer hasn't learned about the newer features. That would be frustrating at least with EPS or PDF's you can easily combine them into one file.

I know we have artboards now but, Illustrator has had the ability to do "multiple pages" since the early 90's.

 

[brycesteiner]

I know we have artboards now but, Illustrator has had the ability to do "multiple pages" since the early 90's.

Are you referring to Multiple Layers? I have both CS2 and CS6. CS2 cannot do it and has no option for it in page setup.

 

[Rick]

Any version of illustrator can do this all the way back to V.88 or version 3... can't remember... but....

---------

Sart a new page

Set your document to 51"w x 33"h (this will make 9 - 11" x 17" pages)

Hit CMD-P and you will be in your print dialog box.

Select your printer/page size - Under "GENERAL>MEDIA SIZE select 11" x 17"

Under "OPTIONS" select "TILE FULL PAGES"

Make sure your orientation is correct, you will see it in the window in your print dialog box...

hit "DONE"

Go to your tool bar and select the "PRINT TILING TOOL" on the lower left where the hand tool is and double click it...

Pages and print area will show up....

 

[Rick]

Now it's obvious artboards are better but this worked for us for years... this is what it looks like in CSS 2014...

 

[brycesteiner]

Any version of illustrator can do this all the way back to V.88 or version 3... can't remember... but....

---------

Sart a new page

Set your document to 51"w x 33"h (this will make 9 - 11" x 17" pages)

Hit CMD-P and you will be in your print dialog box.

Select your printer/page size - Under "GENERAL>MEDIA SIZE select 11" x 17"

Under "OPTIONS" select "TILE FULL PAGES"

Make sure your orientation is correct, you will see it in the window in your print dialog box...

hit "DONE"

Go to your tool bar and select the "PRINT TILING TOOL" on the lower left where the hand tool is and double click it...

Pages and print area will show up....

That sounds more like what I thought I would hear.

Tiling is not even close to having multiple pages. You found a "fix" that worked for you due to the fact that there were no multi-page options in Illustrator, but this would not work in any kind of printed document where you have to have bleeds, not to mention the other issues that go along with this. If someone sent a file like that to me for prepress or any kind of print work, I would be PO'd having to split this all up because they had to use Illustrator vs learning a program that was made for multi-page printed work.

 

[Rick]

For what the OP wanted, and in a lot of cases with multiple sign types... ummm not everything is printed, this would have worked fine...

 

[Rick]

Oh geez, I forgot...

I can also set up my pages accounting for bleed
either by using a custom page size or scaling or
output to .pdf like most printers take with the bleed
taken into account.

Though by that time, I'd be in InDesign...

 

[Marlene]

And you expect a designer who works for a creative firm to know how to break files up for cutting/routing? Isn't that your job, hence why they are sending you the work? That is not something that is taught in school so I don't see why you think they would know how to do it.

no, I do expect them to know how to set up a file for output as that is their job. want to get into our industry, then learn what that involves. they are designing signs, selling that talent and not able to come thru which cost the customer more as it shouldn't have to go thru two people

 

[klmiller611]

no, I do expect them to know how to set up a file for output as that is their job. want to get into our industry, then learn what that involves. they are designing signs, selling that talent and not able to come thru which cost the customer more as it shouldn't have to go thru two people

Absolutely correct! It is not just setting up art for our business, but any sort of use outside of your own computer. Whatever it is they are designing, unless it is strictly internet, is going to the outside world, which means either a sign shop or a print shop. So many of these folks do not understand why fluorescent color does not work, drop shadows, why they need to included fonts and linked files, proper resolution, etc. etc. They have not been trained, or the trainers do not understand either. In an average year that I seriously doubt I get 1 job in 40 that is ready to go as is. Many of these jobs comes from people in ad agencies, corporate communications departments, etc, and really should know more of what they are doing and why it does or does not work.

I go back to when I was doing some work for a print shop. One of their biggest clients was the newspaper through an ad agency. These folks had decent design skills, but did not understand that they needed to provide us correct files to output and/or easily fix. They were making multiple page documents, like booklets, in programs like Illustrator or then Freehand. If you are using something that is not truly designed for that type of work, you need to step into a standard use program like an InDesign or QuarkXpress. We set up a meeting with them to explain, that it would speed their job through the shop, save them (and their client) money, because then we could easily manipulate the files to make it work, rather than having to continually send it back for changes.

We might as well have been talking to the wall. They said, they did not care, and they would continue to do it the way they had been, mainly because they did not want to adapt. So, as soon as a change was needed, we sent it back to them, and back and forth it went, running the meter the whole time.

The end result was, the agency ended up losing the newspaper as a client, which was at least 80 percent of their business, which shut them down. Now, perhaps if they had not been spending so money and time much on delays, they might have kept that big client.

People in the business need to know how to properly produce a file, and learn how it works on the other end of the system, it would make all jobs easier.

Ken Miller

 

[Marlene]

Absolutely correct! It is not just setting up art for our business, but any sort of use outside of your own computer. Whatever it is they are designing, unless it is strictly internet, is going to the outside world, which means either a sign shop or a print shop. So many of these folks do not understand why fluorescent color does not work, drop shadows, why they need to included fonts and linked files, proper resolution, etc. etc. They have not been trained, or the trainers do not understand either. In an average year that I seriously doubt I get 1 job in 40 that is ready to go as is. Many of these jobs comes from people in ad agencies, corporate communications departments, etc, and really should know more of what they are doing and why it does or does not work.

I go back to when I was doing some work for a print shop. One of their biggest clients was the newspaper through an ad agency. These folks had decent design skills, but did not understand that they needed to provide us correct files to output and/or easily fix. They were making multiple page documents, like booklets, in programs like Illustrator or then Freehand. If you are using something that is not truly designed for that type of work, you need to step into a standard use program like an InDesign or QuarkXpress. We set up a meeting with them to explain, that it would speed their job through the shop, save them (and their client) money, because then we could easily manipulate the files to make it work, rather than having to continually send it back for changes.

We might as well have been talking to the wall. They said, they did not care, and they would continue to do it the way they had been, mainly because they did not want to adapt. So, as soon as a change was needed, we sent it back to them, and back and forth it went, running the meter the whole time.

The end result was, the agency ended up losing the newspaper as a client, which was at least 80 percent of their business, which shut them down. Now, perhaps if they had not been spending so money and time much on delays, they might have kept that big client.

People in the business need to know how to properly produce a file, and learn how it works on the other end of the system, it would make all jobs easier.

Ken Miller

so glad you get it. it is part of the designer's job to know what is needed when they sell a design to a customer. we have had so many sign designs that come from a designer that I've had to totally rework to make it so it could be used. that charge gets passed onto the customer who can't understand why they are paying me for what they thought they had all ready paid for. then there is a whole other problem wehn they spec out the job and have no clue about materials. I can't count the number of times I get spec from a designer for a sign that is 97" long. I explain to the customer that yes I can do that but the the substrate comes in 96" and 120" and they will be paying extra for a 10' piece for the extra 1". just basic knowledge would be nice. I dont' expect them to know everything but if you seel yourself as being able to design a sign, then take the time to learn what is needed to do so

 

[WildWestDesigns]

then there is a whole other problem wehn they spec out the job and have no clue about materials. I can't count the number of times I get spec from a designer for a sign that is 97" long. I explain to the customer that yes I can do that but the the substrate comes in 96" and 120" and they will be paying extra for a 10' piece for the extra 1". just basic knowledge would be nice. I dont' expect them to know everything but if you seel yourself as being able to design a sign, then take the time to learn what is needed to do so

Slightly different bent to things from my perspective. Assuming that the file is setup close to perfection as one can get. There are times when things just don't translate at the size and layout that they are wanting depending on the application.

I can't tell you how many times I get: "But the designer said to get the file done as is and it being vector will work in any situation and I spent all this money on them to get this file created".

"I'm sorry, if I were to setup it up that way "as is", you won't like the results. It just doesn't translate at that size with any degree of quality."

They think I'm incompetent, go elsewhere that does it "as is" without any feedback on on those same areas of concern and the quality looks horrible. Ironically the client loves it (that is, until a friend or some stranger tells them it looks awful, if that does happen).

 

[CMYKprnt]

I think you guys are looking at it from your own perspective. As a small/large format printing company and a former owner of a creative agency who also brokers tons of other types of printing I can tell you that when you look at it from the designer's perspective there is a butt load of stuff to learn considering that there are tons of different types of printing and you expect an artist to know the ins and outs of yours. I know many of you think that designing for the web is easy but there are complicated rules for that as well. You don't just slap up some pretty graphics and move on down the road.

If you want them to do more, take a page from the online super shops and provide templates, videos, FAQs on how you want your files and make it dummy proof so that second year designer knows exactly what you expect. You might want to provide a preflighting tool for them as well. This will eliminate spending 2 hours downloading a bunch of files with low res images, .bmp logos, no bleeds, etc...

Not to mention that most designers worth their salt, don't design in Illustrator only - they use illustrator & Photoshop to build components but InDesign is their program that does the heavy lifting.

Or use it as an opportunity to start a working relationship with the designer. Lunch and Learn - designers want to be great - not just at the design part but every part.

And dont forget to think about whether or not you are making it EASY for customers to do business with you! If a designer has their choice of which print/sign shop to send business, they will always pick the ones that are easy to work with because it is "just easy to send it to them". I can tell you that the online stores get a lot of business because it is pretty damn easy to do business with them. It is not just because they have a low prices and a quick turn time. If you were the designer/client would you rather upload a file, see a proof within seconds, get notified when your order ships and get a tracking number or the way it works today in your shop? Take quality out the equation, pretend you are equal for a moment and think who makes it easier to do business - you or the online shop?

I know it is easier to do business with them than me at the moment as it haunts me and keeps me up at night. Now if I can make it just as easy and provide all the perks the online shops don't - the rest is history - my business will grow.

Why not take the approach to try and make it easy for the designer/customer to do business with you rather than what can the designer/customer do for me. I have never known any designer that just wants to make crappy files and be frustrated all the time. It is tough job.

 

[Rick]

I think you guys are looking at it from your own perspective. As a small/large format printing company and a former owner of a creative agency who also brokers tons of other types of printing I can tell you that when you look at it from the designer's perspective there is a butt load of stuff to learn considering that there are tons of different types of printing and you expect an artist to know the ins and outs of yours. I know many of you think that designing for the web is easy but there are complicated rules for that as well. You don't just slap up some pretty graphics and move on down the road.

If you want them to do more, take a page from the online super shops and provide templates, videos, FAQs on how you want your files and make it dummy proof so that second year designer knows exactly what you expect. You might want to provide a preflighting tool for them as well. This will eliminate spending 2 hours downloading a bunch of files with low res images, .bmp logos, no bleeds, etc...

Not to mention that most designers worth their salt, don't design in Illustrator only - they use illustrator & Photoshop to build components but InDesign is their program that does the heavy lifting.

Or use it as an opportunity to start a working relationship with the designer. Lunch and Learn - designers want to be great - not just at the design part but every part.

And dont forget to think about whether or not you are making it EASY for customers to do business with you! If a designer has their choice of which print/sign shop to send business, they will always pick the ones that are easy to work with because it is "just easy to send it to them". I can tell you that the online stores get a lot of business because it is pretty damn easy to do business with them. It is not just because they have a low prices and a quick turn time. If you were the designer/client would you rather upload a file, see a proof within seconds, get notified when your order ships and get a tracking number or the way it works today in your shop? Take quality out the equation, pretend you are equal for a moment and think who makes it easier to do business - you or the online shop?

I know it is easier to do business with them than me at the moment as it haunts me and keeps me up at night. Now if I can make it just as easy and provide all the perks the online shops don't - the rest is history - my business will grow.

Why not take the approach to try and make it easy for the designer/customer to do business with you rather than what can the designer/customer do for me. I have never known any designer that just wants to make crappy files and be frustrated all the time. It is tough job.

You still have your own perspective....

But I can agree with what you are saying... we have to work with a designer for a favorable outcome.... designers, like us, want a good (and profitable) result...

Many sign shops hand fabricate, sent to water jet cutters, routers, have to offset path for bits and tools, create entry points for water jet cuts, set up for push thru or letter faces, bents for letter returns, braille translations, engraving offsets, silk screen, traps, chokes, ohhhhh. and occasionally digital print... all on the same job... we also have to make city submittals that are designed to a scale and have them measured in correct proportions from the same files to pull permits.

Then as Marlene brought up, we deal with stock material sizes, material type, codes, more codes, and codes on top of that... then hope the city approved it, or trying to make a dimensional logo with strokes if 3/32" on 1" acrylic.... so we have to go back and forth with the designer to fix these production issues.

Seems after reading this thread, the sign industry has no standard either... why, because there is no standard sign business... we are not all print shops. How should we expect designers to know, when we are not all the same?

Most sign people are self taught... scary when it comes to sending a file designed to exact specifications that sometimes get ignored.

Most sign shops design their own stuff... right or wrong, it still gets done

When sign shops get designers files, they are thrown off because they may not know what we are doing... or the designer does not... we have to rely on a base production program, one that easily can fix the issue, send out for approval, then send to this output device, or to that specific production software.

I found out real quick that I don't want a designer making final production files.
When I was a production monkey, I had a checklist I adhered too so I know what to look out for.

Every computer sign shop I worked at used Corel or Illustrator as their base production software. Then it was sent whatever production software for the application that applied to the production technique... Flexi, Gerber, Versaworks, ArtCam, the list is endless. It's my understanding with the work I deal with (environmental and architectural graphics) that it's still done the same way and I have never had any complaints about my production files.

I don't think there is one answer here, we just have to get it done without ruffling too many feathers... and get paid for our production time.