Why get a flatbed?

[TXFB.INS]

Hello,

If this is already answered, please direct to the OP, didn't find a relevant search.

The shop I want at runs a Roland VS 640, and I am curious as to the purpose of a flatbed.

What I know about flatbeds

• any flat surface that fits between the head and the bed. glass, ceramic, ANYTHING
• UV inks can be printed on multiple times to create raised fonts/images
• faster as no need to apply vinyl

what about cost?
why use a flatbed over a roll-to-roll?
lamination on UV inks when they are raised?

Thanks,

 

[jhanson]

Where a true flatbed really shines is in producing quantities of rigid board signs. Foam-Cor, Sintra, Dibond, all those things work great with UV flatbeds, and there's no application time for vinyl. However, the UV ink isn't always as durable; some dibond knockoffs have coated surfaces that prevent proper ink adhesion, so you do have to pay attention to the substrates you're using. If you're going to be running a huge job on an untested material, test it first... But that really applies to anything, solvent included.

You can multi-strike to create textured images, but it's very time consuming to do so.

Glass typically requires a pre-treatment for UV ink to stick properly.

Finally, flatbed printers are not cheap. You can get a hybrid printer (roll to roll modified to accept rigid materials) starting at about $50k from Mutoh. Hybrid printers are not as practical for rigid stock and can be a pain to load, plus they typically can't run edge to edge. Roland's VersaUV also falls into that category at around $60k. True flatbeds start around $100k and go up from there, but the results tend to be much better.

If you want a real flatbed machine but don't like the price, you can start with a used model for below $100k. Shop around to make sure you're getting the right printer for your needs -- don't just listen to sales pitches because that's how a lot of sign shops go out of business.

 

[JWesthead]

Agree with all mentioned.

Hybrid flatbeds are not friendly to substrates that are not COMPLETELY flat. Unfortunately its also hard to sometimes tell before its too late.

 

[petepaz]

why?...because all the cool people have them (just kidding)

i would say you get one because your business(customers/jobs) need to be printed on a flatbed(rigid materials or if the uv ink is a benefit) same as mentioned above. the main thing is your current business has to justify the purchase of the flatbed. don't get one and expect to get work for it you will be putting your self in a financial hardship. it's a big investment you have to make sure your current work load will support the expence.

 

[CS-SignSupply-TT]

FLATBED, to buy or not to buy

why?...because all the cool people have them (just kidding)

i would say you get one because your business(customers/jobs) need to be printed on a flatbed(rigid materials or if the uv ink is a benefit) same as mentioned above. the main thing is your current business has to justify the purchase of the flatbed. don't get one and expect to get work for it you will be putting your self in a financial hardship. it's a big investment you have to make sure your current work load will support the expence.

+1 if your CORE business is printed vinyl applied to rigid substrates, then a flatbed is your answer. Why? You eliminate "applying" the vinyl to the substrate and unintentionally fouling the print; therefore, calling for a re-do.

By the way, if you are interested in seeing the flatbeds in action, attend the ISA show in Orlando March 22-24 http://www.signexpo.org/. Please stop by the FLORA booth, sponsor of the signs101.com "flatbed" forum.

 

[Gino]

+1 if your CORE business is printed vinyl applied to rigid substrates, then a flatbed is your answer. Why? You eliminate "applying" the vinyl to the substrate and unintentionally fouling the print; therefore, calling for a re-do.

By the way, if you are interested in seeing the flatbeds in action, attend the ISA show in Orlando March 22-24 http://www.signexpo.org/. Please stop by the FLORA booth, sponsor of the signs101.com "flatbed" forum.

In addition, you eliminate buying vinyl, expensive solvent inks, walking back and forth to a laminator and back to the cutter, weeding and last applying it to a substrate..... not to mention all the monkey-time you save.

We have one customer which used to take us about 7 or so days to complete their signs. We now do it in a day and a half. Without any monkey-time or media investment at all.

 

[TXFB.INS]

thanks for the information

yes a lot of what is done here is onto rigid substrates.
looks like some interesting stuff to look into during down times

 

[CS-SignSupply-TT]

Here's a heh!heh!heh! for you. You will have MORE "down times" with a flatbed because you are getting your work out more quickly, with less labor, therefore mor profit$$$$

 

[TXFB.INS]

The boss does LOVE having that ROI to be as high as possible

 

[Gino]

Here's a heh!heh!heh! for you. You will have MORE "down times" with a flatbed because you are getting your work out more quickly, with less labor, therefore mor profit$$$$

That is so true. We've become super efficient without becoming efficient. :ROFLMAO:

 

[jhanson]

By the way, for anyone interested in going to the ISA or SGIA shows to look at machines, look at the mode that the techs are running their high quality samples in. If the machine is running uni-directional, chances are they're trying to cover up chromatic (aka "lawnmower") banding inherent in the machine. They may also get annoyed if you ask why

A good quality UV flatbed should be able to run bi-directional printing at reasonable speed without getting chromatic banding.

 

[gnemmas]

OK, pros for flatbed:

-eliminate vinyl (money saved)
-one less step (labor saved)

Cons?

-cost of capital investment
-maintenance contract
-more finiky to operate?
-lonegivity of inks
-
-
-

Please pitch in.

 

[HulkSmash]

here's the pros for us.

spending ~7k a month on intermediate vinyl + lam for cheap yard signs and what not.


put ~1k into a finance payment, 6k into pocket. PROFIT.

 

[SignManiac]

Production efficiency...

 

[CS-SignSupply-TT]

FLATBED, to buy or not to buy

Production efficiency...

EQUALS = PROFIT

 

[jhanson]

I don't think that flatbed printers are any more finicky to operate than most sign printers. If anything, solvent printers are more troublesome since you have to worry more about keeping the heads from drying out. UV inks are much more stable at room temperature, but you still don't want to leave a machine sitting for weeks on end...

Ink longevity is not usually an issue. Flexibility may be, depending on whose ink you use, but nobody uses UV printers to make vehicle wraps anyway. It's just the wrong process.

 

[Gino]

gnemm……

You’ve dumbed it down wrong.

Flatbed
1. First you load a rigid substrate
2. Hit print
3. Take it to cutting device
4. Done

Roll to roll
1. Load vinyl in machine
2. Print
3. Take to laminator
4. Laminate
5. Take to cutter device
6. Cut media
7. Weed and apply to substrate
8. Take to cutting device
9. Done

Now, should this be double sided
1. Drop step #4 above and turn rigid substrate upside down
2. Hit print
3. Take it to cutting device
4. Now….. Done

Roll to roll
1. Load vinyl in machine
2. Print
3. Take to laminator
4. Laminate
5. Take to cutter device
6. Cut media
7. Weed and apply to substrate
8. Take to cutting device
9. Done


Less all the monkey-time, vinyl, laminate and goof-ups

Whatever you can fit under your gantry, you can print it without too much hassle, instantly.

According to which machine you buy, we’ve had ZERO maintenance costs and it’s almost two years we have it. Inks cost less to put down and for the most part, inkjets only last 3 to 4 years in all honesty and we’ve now had some out for two years and they still look fine. Some laminated… some not. Up front cost, if you aren’t doing a lot a week, this kinda machine isn’t for you. The cost won’t matter though if you run a machine anywhere near 30 hours a week or more, you’ll get your return in no time.

Our first job paid for the machine in its entirety, the job we did and we still had money in the end. A machine like this, you just don’t think about it…. you have to have the kinda business to support it ahead of time and then bring it in and start producing immediately. Learning curve or finicky to operate ?? None. Ours was set up on a Wednesday, and made fully functional in no time. The tech was actually running prints by the end of the day. Thursday by lunchtime Jeremy and I knew how to operate it. We were turning out signs by Thursday afternoon into the night. Friday the tech went home almost immediately. Other than replacement of lamps and ink, we’ve had no problems…. knock on wood ))

 

[gnemmas]

In one sentence: to flatbed or not to flatbed, it is the question of volume.

- If you spend over $2k on vinyl and lam. for printing, that will cover the payment for a $100k flatbed, plus labor saved as bonus.

- If you have 5 or 6 employee in the backroom, replace one with a flatbed.

By the way, I heard extended warranty is a must for flatbed, what is cost like? 20% of the cost of the printer?