wind load calculation

[kstompaint]

I'm working on a project that amounts to a 4'x4' sign to be installed on 4"x4" posts with the sign face 2' from the ground (6' overall height) with no lighting. I made the mistake of contacting the powers that be. I now have twice as much time in dealing with bureaucrats as will be spent on design, production and installation of the whole project. When I have to contract an engineer for every project this small, I'll be sticking with wraps and custom paint. Enough with my frustration rant...

They requested information regarding the foundation supporting this sign to 90 mph wind load. Is there a simple way for me to do this?

 

[neato]

Yep, call an engineer.

 

[kstompaint]

Yep, call an engineer.

That's not an option on this one, and it shouldn't have to be. These regulations are getting out of hand.

 

[signage]

No these regulations are not getting out of hand! If the sign is not installed to with stand the wind loads and blows into an automobile driving down the road and kills someone then you will understand!

 

[kstompaint]

signage- The sign is 4'x4'! Its' not a 30' monument. I submitted the plan to bury the posts 30" in a 9" hole and fill it with concrete (overkill). That wasn't good enough for them. IT IS GETTING OUT OF HAND.

 

[Flame]

No these regulations are not getting out of hand! If the sign is not installed to with stand the wind loads and blows into an automobile driving down the road and kills someone then you will understand!

The sheer gale force required to blow over a 4' x 4' sign with only 6 screws holding it onto the poles, would more than likely rip the entire roof off of the building before it took the sign down.

Regulations are needed, but some are ridiculous. To paint a logo on my building, it took 30 days to get approval, $320 in permit fees and a city worker had to be on site to make sure there we were... "doing it right".

Not even going to start into the sight triangles. Sigh...

 

[neato]

If it's required by your city codes, it's definitely an option. If you calculate wind loads, it'll need an engineers stamp anyway, so just let him do it.

 

[royster13]

Well municipalities are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not......They get sued both ways.....They get sued if they are "over zealous" and they get sued if they have "weak" rules.....

 

[kstompaint]

They're not requiring an engineer to do it, nor should they be. It's absurd to make an $800 sign into a $1500 sign for the sake of an unnecessary paper trail. Enough with the semantics of it, does anybody have a solution for me? Is there an online calculator?

 

[Williams Signs]

Still like the code regulations in my city. Code reads don't put signs in ride of way. That's it....simple

 

[signage]

kstompaint if you would check the BOCA requirement you would know that 30" is not deep enough! You are required to go below the frost line which is 48" in your area! Now maybe if you had the correct depth on you design they may not have required you to supply them with wind loads! Not knowing basic building codes can cause bigger issues! JM.02c

 

[royster13]

Like it or not, your 800.00 sign is not going to happen now......And better to find out before the fact rules applied then after the fact when they ordered you to take it down and your client sues you to get their money back.....Good luck.....

 

[signage]

Here is a link to software! I do not know how reliable it is!

 

[neato]

Maybe this will help...

http://signcost.org/winds.html

 

[kstompaint]

OK, I need some help with a calculation, not a peanut gallery. The naysayers here, as well as the bureaucrats and engineers (whose primary cause in these matters is to justify their own existence), are applying zero COMMON SENSE. The frost line is 36", I just helped my buddy build a pole building, that was the code. This is not a building. 30"x9" holes with concrete is overkill for this application. I can assure you that it would still be standing when we are all dead and gone, but again that would be applying common sense.

signage, neato, thanks for the links. Very helpful and appreciated.

 

[signage]

You are correct on 36" when you have a skirting! Without skirting it is 48"! The calculations are not just simple calculations!

 

[kstompaint]

You are correct on 36" when you have a skirting! Without skirting it is 48"! The calculations are not just simple calculations!

Like I said, this isn't a 30' monument. Common sense and 17 years in the biz goes a long way in the real world. Not so much when you're a self-righteous pencil pusher with little or no actual experience.

2 weeks ago, we installed exactly the same sign with exactly the same materials in exactly the same manner for the same customer (only it was a 4'x8' face) in a DIFFERENT municipality. It was quickly approved and installed. The difference is that this municipality subs the permitting to a third party engineer (see above description). It's semantics, not reality.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

it amazes me how defensive and upset you are about this kustom. there are SO many yahoos that have been doing things half baked for so long that municipalities are forced to crack down. in my opinion if it is a permanent installation it needs the approval of the city, if the city decides that they require engineering/engineer stamp of approval these are costs we need to accept and pass on to our customers so that we are viewed as an industry of professionals that does professional reliable work that we can stand behind, rather than an industry of fly by night unlicensed bafoons..which is what many people view us as.

like it or not change is going to come to our industry. too many ppl have done unprofessional work for too long and the easiest way for the municipalities to rope us in is going to be in the area of installations.

i don't understand why you would not want to have an engineer calculate this for you? you make the city happy, your customer knows they are getting something that is up to code, you can sleep well at night knowing it is built correctly and installed correctly.

i have seen the signs that everyone thinks didn't need engineering so they faked their way around it only to have it fail under conditions that it shouldn't have if built to professional standards on more than one occasion. i get inquiries from attorneys almost every month asking me if i would provide my opinion on the construction of a sign that failed, i decline 99% of them but i guarantee you that they find someone to tell them what they want to hear...i don't ever want to be on the other end of that situation.

 

[kstompaint]

it amazes me how defensive and upset you are about this kustom.

It's because in this particular case, it's a waste of time and resources.

too many ppl have done unprofessional work for too long and the easiest way for the municipalities to rope us in is going to be in the area of installations.

Most of the municipalities and engineers are far more concerned with collecting a fee than they are anything else.

i don't understand why you would not want to have an engineer calculate this for you? you make the city happy, your customer knows they are getting something that is up to code, you can sleep well at night knowing it is built correctly and installed correctly.

I've installed hundreds of these in the last 17 years. None of them have failed. Me AND my customer are pissed off because this unnecessary red tape is doubling the cost and tripling the time for no good reason.

Again, this is not a monster of a sign that is towering over a pedestrian walk way. I've always avoided projects like that for precisely this reason. It's a 4'x4' post sign! It needs to be engineered about as much as my grandmother's clothes line.

 

[neato]

Well, it all boils down to the fact that without a windload calculation, you're not going to get approval for this sign. Period. That's the cities regulations, I'm pretty sure you're not going to change them over an $800 sign.

So you have 2 choices:

1. Let someone trained (an engineer) do the calculations
2. Figure out all the confusing math to do it yourself and hope it's correct.

I wish there was a magic online calculator, I've searched for it myself in the past. I just think the calculations are too complex and with too many variables. Maybe I'm wrong.

If this was me, I'd explain the situation to the customer. Sounds like you've done work for them before. They should understand, this isn't your fault. It's the code. If you want to do business in that city, you have to do it by the code.