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Best Flatbed?
- Thread starter cwb143
- Start date
Grizzly
It’s all about your print!
AGFA 1224 HDC, Jeti 3150
I run both an older Jet 3150 (The 50th Machine in 2005) and a Jeti 1224 HDC. The 3150 was fast in its time and if you can keep up on your print heads it prints very consistent. It is definately a work horse. I've ran it 24 hrs a day sometimes up to a month and no problems.
The AGFA 1224 HDC prints really good (Almost offset good) and I can print a 4x8 on 4 pass in 3 1/2 minutes. The 1224 shows more fingerprints so we had to start wearing gloves and you can't clean material or it shows rag streaks. Also, white is kind of a pain and not very opaque. It is also a workhorse and built like a tank, which is why we bought it over the Oce Accuity. I've been happy witht he ink other than I would like a brighter red and a truer yellow. Other than that it runs everyday!
Jeremy
I run both an older Jet 3150 (The 50th Machine in 2005) and a Jeti 1224 HDC. The 3150 was fast in its time and if you can keep up on your print heads it prints very consistent. It is definately a work horse. I've ran it 24 hrs a day sometimes up to a month and no problems.
The AGFA 1224 HDC prints really good (Almost offset good) and I can print a 4x8 on 4 pass in 3 1/2 minutes. The 1224 shows more fingerprints so we had to start wearing gloves and you can't clean material or it shows rag streaks. Also, white is kind of a pain and not very opaque. It is also a workhorse and built like a tank, which is why we bought it over the Oce Accuity. I've been happy witht he ink other than I would like a brighter red and a truer yellow. Other than that it runs everyday!
Jeremy
I can't tell you what the best UV printer is, but I'm 100% sure of what has to be the worst,
That's the gandi jeti! We had three gani jetis at one time, a 3 meter roll to roll, a 5 meter roll to roll and the flat bed, all were equally pieces of shit in their own way.
Every time we fixed one thing 5 more would screw up! God I hate those printers!
That's the gandi jeti! We had three gani jetis at one time, a 3 meter roll to roll, a 5 meter roll to roll and the flat bed, all were equally pieces of shit in their own way.
Every time we fixed one thing 5 more would screw up! God I hate those printers!
National Sign Co. - Print
Merchant Member
It's not the car. It's the driver...
10sacer
New Member
Mike,
Normally I would agree with you, but in this industry - there have been some pretty crappy cars... no matter who was driving them.
Gandi has (had) a lousy reputation here in North Carolina due to several high profile failures at big providers.
That being said - alot of the newer AGFA/Jeti line is pretty nice stuff.
Normally I would agree with you, but in this industry - there have been some pretty crappy cars... no matter who was driving them.
Gandi has (had) a lousy reputation here in North Carolina due to several high profile failures at big providers.
That being said - alot of the newer AGFA/Jeti line is pretty nice stuff.
cdiesel
New Member
If you really only *need* 200sf an hour, you can get that pretty cheaply. Brand new machines that'll run white for less than $150k, on their slowest print speeds. I'd be thinking about what you're going to need down the road a ways.. 200sf an hour probably won't cut it.
If I had no printers and $500k to spend, this is what I'd buy:
Used QS3200 ~$185k
L25500 ~$15k
LX800 ~$175k
Zund (as much as I could get with the rest of the budget.. can be added to later)
That setup's got some decent throughput, on a wide variety of materials, and excellent quality.
If I had no printers and $500k to spend, this is what I'd buy:
Used QS3200 ~$185k
L25500 ~$15k
LX800 ~$175k
Zund (as much as I could get with the rest of the budget.. can be added to later)
That setup's got some decent throughput, on a wide variety of materials, and excellent quality.
National Sign Co. - Print
Merchant Member
I would disagree 100% 3 different machines with so many issues.
Usually caused by:
1. Print environment not to spec.
2. Machines abused and not maintained properly
3. Careless operators
We have had 2 3150's for 4+ years with minimal issues and almost 24/7 operation in that time. Only one of the machines has had issues with the Honle box and curing system on a couple of occasions. Yes they happened at the worst possible times and set us back a few days. Other than that the Machines do not owe us a dime.
Would I buy another Agfa/Gandi/Jeti? No, but that is more based on the companies and not the actual machines productivity, design and capabilities.
artbot
New Member
within this discussion, i'd like some knowledgeable flatbed users to discuss the difference between the belt drive and actual flatbed.
there's the old saying that a hybrid does neither well. but which neither does it not do well? does the hybrid, using a roll to roll running across a flat bed vacuum belt drive not print well on roll to roll? but does that same system do a great job on rigid?
or does the belt drive miss on both parts, neither working well with rigid or roll media. i'd like to pick up an old vutek 200/600 or an early acuity/250gt etc. but i will only run rigid material. will the belt drive be a nightmare over the years? what i most need to do is re-register prints. as an artist, i build my pieces layer by layer. obviously a flat bed will be dead on. how accurate is the belt drive? can one drop and dot on top of a dot, so to speak, with a belt drive? or will each pass by a tiny margin to the left or right (say a quarter of a millimeter)?
thanks for any added input on this subject.
there's the old saying that a hybrid does neither well. but which neither does it not do well? does the hybrid, using a roll to roll running across a flat bed vacuum belt drive not print well on roll to roll? but does that same system do a great job on rigid?
or does the belt drive miss on both parts, neither working well with rigid or roll media. i'd like to pick up an old vutek 200/600 or an early acuity/250gt etc. but i will only run rigid material. will the belt drive be a nightmare over the years? what i most need to do is re-register prints. as an artist, i build my pieces layer by layer. obviously a flat bed will be dead on. how accurate is the belt drive? can one drop and dot on top of a dot, so to speak, with a belt drive? or will each pass by a tiny margin to the left or right (say a quarter of a millimeter)?
thanks for any added input on this subject.
Typestries
New Member
It's a shame harry and co f'd up gandiinnovations-they are awesome machines fundamentally
it's more of a shame Agfa has done nothing to pursue the innovation they purchased. The Gandi media transport concept is superior to the vutek, and Agfa could really rock EFI on the print quality side if they did it properly.
I'd buy a used gandi before I bought the exact same piece of metal brand new from Agfa!
Agree with Mike, it's the driver, not the car.
it's more of a shame Agfa has done nothing to pursue the innovation they purchased. The Gandi media transport concept is superior to the vutek, and Agfa could really rock EFI on the print quality side if they did it properly.
I'd buy a used gandi before I bought the exact same piece of metal brand new from Agfa!
Agree with Mike, it's the driver, not the car.
National Sign Co. - Print
Merchant Member
We have machines from efi vutek, hp scitex and Agfa gandi.
All perform equally as well for what they are needed for.
The weakest being the lx 800... As far as true production needs speed and durability.
Service is horrible from all latley.. My guys know how to keep the machines running and we have ample spares kits for all machines...
If I was to buy a new r2r machine or flatbed tomorrow. durst would get first look and then efi vutek....
cdiesel
New Member
We run the FB950 - a belt driven hybrid. I think it actually handles both rigid and roll media very well. The only problem we ever have is printing on banner, with heavier rolls, we tend to get some puckering entering the machine. This isn't a function of it being a belt drive, it's caused by sagging in the input system (the bar is a flimsy 1" steel bar. The bar on the LX800 is a stout 3" aluminum piece). Other than that, it feeds everything we've thrown at it very well.
Piece to piece accuracy is very good on this machine. It can be set to read every sheet, or read once and then print subsequential boards in the same spot. We often use this option when running large jobs, and we use the pin alignment system to put the boards in the same spot. It can also be set to read both left & right side, front & back, and all four corners. We've never used anything more than left/right/leading edge. Side to side registration is also very good, usually within 1/32". That's as good as the tolerance you'd get lining up boards manually to a tape mark on a true flatbed.
The biggest advantage to a hybrid is <obviously> being able to run rigid media. If you get a wider machine (ours is 98", and was our widest printer at the time of its purchase), you can run wider. It will give you more capacity for roll media. On our machine, you can load the next sheet while the first is still printing. Couldn't do that on a flatbed. It really depends on your workflow..
Piece to piece accuracy is very good on this machine. It can be set to read every sheet, or read once and then print subsequential boards in the same spot. We often use this option when running large jobs, and we use the pin alignment system to put the boards in the same spot. It can also be set to read both left & right side, front & back, and all four corners. We've never used anything more than left/right/leading edge. Side to side registration is also very good, usually within 1/32". That's as good as the tolerance you'd get lining up boards manually to a tape mark on a true flatbed.
The biggest advantage to a hybrid is <obviously> being able to run rigid media. If you get a wider machine (ours is 98", and was our widest printer at the time of its purchase), you can run wider. It will give you more capacity for roll media. On our machine, you can load the next sheet while the first is still printing. Couldn't do that on a flatbed. It really depends on your workflow..
artbot
New Member
@cdiesel,
thanks for the thorough explanation. just looking at the machines and imagining workflow is not the same as actually owning and knowing what it's like.
when you mentioned loading a fresh sheet while a previous is still printing, ...how is that done? is the tail end of the first sheet exiting over the next few minutes, but the registration bar is available to get the front end of the next sheet set up?
also, i'm assuming with 1/32" of an inch allowance left to right. is this user error because each sheet can only be set just so accurately in the same position that it was placed when last printed? or does the sheet have a tendency to sometimes skew a bit over several feet?
that's also a good point about width and maximum size. i could imagine a project in which several panels (like 10 vertical 60" x 80"s) all seam up and they could be basically butted together in the machine. would the printer just keep printing across the butted edges? that would eliminate the time consuming trimming seam up the images.
thanks for the thorough explanation. just looking at the machines and imagining workflow is not the same as actually owning and knowing what it's like.
when you mentioned loading a fresh sheet while a previous is still printing, ...how is that done? is the tail end of the first sheet exiting over the next few minutes, but the registration bar is available to get the front end of the next sheet set up?
also, i'm assuming with 1/32" of an inch allowance left to right. is this user error because each sheet can only be set just so accurately in the same position that it was placed when last printed? or does the sheet have a tendency to sometimes skew a bit over several feet?
that's also a good point about width and maximum size. i could imagine a project in which several panels (like 10 vertical 60" x 80"s) all seam up and they could be basically butted together in the machine. would the printer just keep printing across the butted edges? that would eliminate the time consuming trimming seam up the images.
cdiesel
New Member
No problem. On the FB950 (and FB500 & FB700, not sure about others), as soon as the trailing edge of the sheet being printed passes the alignment bar, it drops so the next sheet can be set. The printer turns off the vacuum zone in the rear loading area until its ready for the next sheet. When it's ready, it turns the vacuum on, raises the alignment bar and away she goes. There are alignment pins on the load side of the machine so you can put the sheets in the same spot. The 1/32" or so comes from user error putting the sheet in the same spot. This is more of a problem on thinner sheets (think 020 styrene), becuse the alignment pins are chamfered at the bottom and the sheet wants to go under the pin sometimes.
The way we typically run our machine on production runs is to read the first sheet only, use the alignment pins, and then do our best to put the sheets in the same size. On some projects it doesn't matter at all, if they are either full bleed, or parts cut out of the sheet. The small tolerance would only ever become an issue in double sided printing (now your 1/32" is 1/16", which is still usually within tolerance) or on paneled pieces like you mentioned.
If that tolerance is an issue, simply tell the machine to read every sheet. This takes about 30 seconds, which isn't a huge deal if you're running four sheets, but adds up if youre doing hundreds or thousands. f
While your idea of printing many sheets butted up together could work (you'd basiacally just tell the machine you're printing roll stock and butt the boards up manually), I think it would be more problematic than anything. I'd simply print the boards with registration marks and trim accordingly.
Crap, just realized I typed rigid media in the last paragraph above, should say the biggest advantage of a hybrid is being able to run roll media. More capacity for roll stock, and wider widths depending on the machine.
The way we typically run our machine on production runs is to read the first sheet only, use the alignment pins, and then do our best to put the sheets in the same size. On some projects it doesn't matter at all, if they are either full bleed, or parts cut out of the sheet. The small tolerance would only ever become an issue in double sided printing (now your 1/32" is 1/16", which is still usually within tolerance) or on paneled pieces like you mentioned.
If that tolerance is an issue, simply tell the machine to read every sheet. This takes about 30 seconds, which isn't a huge deal if you're running four sheets, but adds up if youre doing hundreds or thousands. f
While your idea of printing many sheets butted up together could work (you'd basiacally just tell the machine you're printing roll stock and butt the boards up manually), I think it would be more problematic than anything. I'd simply print the boards with registration marks and trim accordingly.
Crap, just realized I typed rigid media in the last paragraph above, should say the biggest advantage of a hybrid is being able to run roll media. More capacity for roll stock, and wider widths depending on the machine.
artbot
New Member
thanks again. in the past, i thought of the vacuum belt as a bit of a engineering short cut. but it sounds like for keeping the printer humming, the belt is a really great feature. getting a sheet on the feed table, wiped down, lined up, going to the rip and selecting the file is about a 4 to 6 minute routine for me with my diy jv3 flatbed. currently, i have to wait for the sheet to be off the table because my registration pins are on the front side of the gantry.
i've only been considering the pressvue 200/600's because they are "affordable" (i am a one man, home based business) at $30k-ish. i've read good and bad about so many different hp belt drives, i've lost track with which ones to avoid. that being said, are there any low maintenance used hp flat beds in that range? i've seen them used for $24,000 but they don't seem to be in demand.
i've only been considering the pressvue 200/600's because they are "affordable" (i am a one man, home based business) at $30k-ish. i've read good and bad about so many different hp belt drives, i've lost track with which ones to avoid. that being said, are there any low maintenance used hp flat beds in that range? i've seen them used for $24,000 but they don't seem to be in demand.
"Its the driver not the car" Well up to a certain point. I've ran the Gandi 3150x2 for a year now. I have a pretty good handle on it. But Im telling you it cost money to keep it running not talking about standard consumables and you better have some major patients when it throws fits. It cost us $125.00 for 30 minutes if we can't figure it out. Our customers want Ultraboard and it just destroys the heads after a while you really have to stay on top of it and clean them every 10 panels. Everything else runs pretty good. But ya AGFA hasnt done anyone any favors. I guess they don't care about the people who bought from Gandi and not AGFA.
That may be, but:
1 We have other printers with the same environment/operators and have had very few problems.
2 There are 3 other companies in the area that have Jeti printers and they all have similar problems.
I'm sure there were Yugo owners that loved their cars and had great luck with them
yet it's still "worst car in history"
Good luck with your Yogo.