2000 store install pricing

[jkdbjj]

Sadly Gino you are making assumptions that are only coming out of thin air.
I will leave you to that.
The job is very easy. Yes I will enjoy time with my son, yes I will get around traveling. Yes it will cost money. No I have not given you every piece of information about this job. So just stop painting all these wasteful pictures of fantasy in your head.

Yes the client is going to pay more when I hire more people. Yes these 500 will be done in April. What is so difficult about that?
What is so difficult to understand that these jobs are geographically very tightly constrained so travel time is almost nothing, except to get to that area. Once in that area, many stores will be done over a period of days or weeks in some areas.

All this nonsense about plane tickets, car rentals and leaving me with no money, is just that... nonsense.

The math works out. I didn't ask you for a math lesson. I came on here, shared what I knew at the time, and got some advice. Some positive some not so positive. I appreciate all of it. Yet, you seem to have an axe to grind. That axe has something to do with me adding more info about that job. The job was in mid development, the contract being negotiated, things were changing on a daily basis, so I shared what I could at the time. If you don't like that, or want to make wise cracks, I'll leave you to that, but again. Why so emotional?

Thanks for your concern, but I am OK, will be OK and am not worried at this point. Around 1500 dollars a day 6 days a week is plenty. If a person can not manage this job on that budget, there is something really wrong with them.

 

[GAC05]

Hopefully you won't be starting on the east coast any time soon or you will be needing something like this to get to the jobsite:




wayne k
guam usa

 

[Gino]

No, no ax to grind, especially with you. With your own admission, you said you're still leaving information out. My question or comments to you were just that. ..... you keep changing the story, adding things in as you go along, making other things up and we're all supposed to answer an imaginary fairy tale.

Why even bring your original questions to the table ?? It's all been fictional to this point. After people here make suggrstions, post things and go out of their way to help you, you just say mind your own business and you'll be fine.

No ax, no problem with you or no sense helping you. It now seems like you just wanted to brag but everything g you started with was completely unfounded and you keep backpedaling as you go.

The only sad part is, it's not me making assumptions..... it's you making up this story. Now you're at 10 stores a day, you are gonna pay out more money and suddenly, you found capable people of doing installs besides yourself....... all things you said no to earlier.


Again, good luck, as someone with your delusions is gonna need it.

 

[fixtureman]

why would you give them a discount just because there is more stores. You will have more expenses than you think and the stores you did were in your area no extra nights or extra food. Food will be a lot more than you think in some areas. I did this for 30 years and there are always things that come up like the one time I had to drive 100 miles extra because the material wasn't at the store on time. Other times the area wasn't ready or the store wouldn't let me work during the day.

 

[TimToad]

I've sat back and followed this thread quietly after my initial comments and qualifying questions. I must say its been nothing short of amazing to watch it unravel from a relatively humble, seemingly inexperienced OP asking sincere questions and seeking advice for how to handle such a daunting challenge to essentially a brash, arrogant, fellow poster challenging expert, "I've made up my mind and nothing will change it" know it all who has ignored most of the advice given, repeatedly changed nearly all the aspects of the project with each successive response and is taking the job to both bond with a son, fulfill his wanderlust for travel and try and make some money on it.

But we're all the ones with the problems with this and why can't we just get behind him and his impossible to fail plan for riches, family time and mountains of cash all rolled into one neat, foolproof plan?

Could it be that some of us have been down this road before and experience has taught us that nothing is that simple, efficiently managed and easy?

And why does every thread that folks seeking to help on by responding and raising some legitimate concerns while trying to see all the potential risks or possible pitfalls get the atypical response from some that we're being too negative or just can't see the potential in something?

 

[jkdbjj]

I've sat back and followed this thread quietly after my initial comments and qualifying questions. I must say its been nothing short of amazing to watch it unravel from a relatively humble, seemingly inexperienced OP asking sincere questions and seeking advice for how to handle such a daunting challenge to essentially a brash, arrogant, fellow poster challenging expert, "I've made up my mind and nothing will change it" know it all who has ignored most of the advice given, repeatedly changed nearly all the aspects of the project with each successive response and is taking the job to both bond with a son, fulfill his wanderlust for travel and try and make some money on it.

But we're all the ones with the problems with this and why can't we just get behind him and his impossible to fail plan for riches, family time and mountains of cash all rolled into one neat, foolproof plan?

Could it be that some of us have been down this road before and experience has taught us that nothing is that simple, efficiently managed and easy?

And why does every thread that folks seeking to help on by responding and raising some legitimate concerns while trying to see all the potential risks or possible pitfalls get the atypical response from some that we're being too negative or just can't see the potential in something?

With all due respect TimToad, on the very first post I said "It is a simple job".

Yes the size of it is larger than normal, but the actual job is very simple. I did not come on here saying I don't know what I am doing. I simply came on here to get some ideas and I got them. I listened to every one of them, but it seems no matter what, that unless I drop this job or charge differently some are just going to ride me. Nothing I can do about that.

You seem to have overlooked the posters wishing me luck, and several PM me to wish me luck and offer help when I am in their area. So, not everyone thinks I have come across as you are suggesting.

I can't spell it out any clearer. The job is optimized geographically, the install is very easy, the team I am following very competent, and after chatting with a few on here, and working the details out, it is a good deal for me.

I didn't have all the details up front, so I could not offer them. Also, as I like to think of this place as a place for friends of like businesses to get together and share, discuss and talk, I mentioned I will be bringing my son with me on some of these. I only brought that up because once suggestion was to stay at my shop and let someone else go out.

I have reviewed my posts, and I have answered and responded to most of what was asked of me. So, I am convinced that unless I come back and say "guys you were right, this was not for me" some just want be satisfied on here.

Rather than simply smearing mud around, tell me what exactly is wrong with what I am doing? Now that I know all the details to the job, I have replied and answered anyone that has a concern.
I would not be doing this job if I felt I could not do it, and not make money at it, period.

 

[jkdbjj]

why would you give them a discount just because there is more stores. You will have more expenses than you think and the stores you did were in your area no extra nights or extra food. Food will be a lot more than you think in some areas. I did this for 30 years and there are always things that come up like the one time I had to drive 100 miles extra because the material wasn't at the store on time. Other times the area wasn't ready or the store wouldn't let me work during the day.

Thanks fixtureman, the way the contract reads addresses some of these concerns. As you are correct I can not forsee all events. So, in the event something falls out of the ordinary, they have agreed in writing to evaluate those concerns and compensate where it is appropriate.
Also, I am working directly with the Senior Manager on this project, so I feel comfortable in our relationship. I have mentioned that a few times throughout this thread, just in case people thought these people were trying to get over on me. They have been nothing but awesome to work with so far.

With that said, your concern is perhaps the biggest one of all to worry about, and I feel comfortable they will work with me.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[jkdbjj]

No, no ax to grind, especially with you. With your own admission, you said you're still leaving information out. My question or comments to you were just that. ..... you keep changing the story, adding things in as you go along, making other things up and we're all supposed to answer an imaginary fairy tale.

Why even bring your original questions to the table ?? It's all been fictional to this point. After people here make suggrstions, post things and go out of their way to help you, you just say mind your own business and you'll be fine.

No ax, no problem with you or no sense helping you. It now seems like you just wanted to brag but everything g you started with was completely unfounded and you keep backpedaling as you go.

The only sad part is, it's not me making assumptions..... it's you making up this story. Now you're at 10 stores a day, you are gonna pay out more money and suddenly, you found capable people of doing installs besides yourself....... all things you said no to earlier.


Again, good luck, as someone with your delusions is gonna need it.

10 stores a day? What cloud did that come from?
Now I am delusional? So you are resorting to personal attacks, nice.

What part about this was in mid development do you not understand? Originally I would have wanted to do this with a small crew of my own, and for the first 500 that is what it will be. After April, I don't have that luxury, and when I started this thread, I did not have the data on timelines. So, over the next days after that, it was explained I would either have to manage installers in other areas, if I want to be part of the total installation, or they would have to go on their own and find other installers.
Between a few offers in PM here on Signs101 and the crew I have, I am more than covered for certain areas.

I also mentioned that each installer will have to be installing basically the same method, so the stores are consistent. This was an issue on the first roll outs, but now that is resolved, so it is trainable for anyone that will be installing on this job.

I simply can not fathom your reaction to the fact that details of the job change, during the negotiation of the job? That is what happens during negotiations.

Looping back to the 10 stores a day, again you have made a mistake. We are doing 5 stores per day at 250/store. That is 1250/day (I wrote 1500/day earlier which was wrong also)
So why are you saying 10 stores a day?

 

[jkdbjj]

No ax, no problem with you or no sense helping you. It now seems like you just wanted to brag but everything g you started with was completely unfounded and you keep backpedaling as you go.

Bragging? About what? I am fully aware that a job like this is small potatoes to many on this site, and yeah maybe to some bigger than they are use to. However, you are so strange.

I am not the first to point this out, but you seem to try SO hard to delve into the psychology of posters and then frame your posts as if you are the keeper of reality of what really is, then you feel it is your duty to preach this view to anyone that will listen.

Example: "It now seems you just wanted to brag"
Suggesting the sole reason for starting a post about a job I was hoping for.
First, to brag about this, would suggest it was a job of some significance, which per your own advice it is not, as I will be left broke.
Second, the job is a decent job, to me, but so many people on this site make the money I am about to make sitting in their shop, just printing banners or boards, SOP for many places. Heck many make that money monthly here. Yet I will be galavanting around the countryside living in hotels on a budget. That is hardly something I would brag about. Though the job is easy technically, it will be a lot of time and labor, so it isn't like it is some epic score I get in a weeks time.

As I said, your emotions are shining through, first by suggesting I am delusional, and second by pretending to be a psychologist telling the world what my real motives are and who I really am.

Umm... OK then...

 

[jkdbjj]

You're planning on installing five stores a day for 10 days....while following a cabinet crew around. What kind of cabinet crew can knock out five store refits in a day? While making custom cuts for electrical and plumbing?

As great as this job sounds it's screaming at me that it would quickly turn into driving 500 miles to a location, expecting to be able to knock out 25 jobs in a week, but the cabinet people are behind so you only do 5 in that week, then they take the weekend off, then they do 19 the next week but won't be able to get the last one done until two weeks later because somebody dropped a cabinet and they have to make a new one. You have to drive 500 miles home, then two weeks later drive 500 miles to install one graphic and drive 500 miles back home all for the grand price of $150.

Hi, just going back to see if I didn't reply properly to people.

The cabinet company is more than just that, they also do entire renovations, new installs of entire stores. I am not sure, but I think they might be the largest and oldest in the country. At least top 5 for sure. So, they have the teams to do as many as are needed as I understand it.

Also, the per store is 250 now with the additional of costs that are out of the ordinary course of a day.
Since they are so experienced, they understand the importance of having teams in close geographical areas as to cut down on travel, and move as a large unit as they finish area.

Hopefully the combination of these aspects will make it a success. They are a very old company and very reputable, so I am sure this is normal for them.

 

[jkdbjj]

Sounds like you have far too many variables of which you have no control. Anything go wrong, and you're up that famous creek without a paddle.

I had a neighbor who did all the rotisserie changeovers for Wawa within a few states distance. He did a few a week. He started reaching out for more stores in more states and asked if I wanted to do the signs, much like what you are talking about here. We went over the details for days. In the week or so we hammered out the price, methods and scheduling, they had so many changes, which was fine for them, but it meant rescheduling my end. I decided to turn it down. About 6 or 8 months later, my neighbor went bankrupt and to jail for fraud, as he was advanced over 2 million dollars for his part of the job, but didn't supply the work. Granted, it wasn't entirely his fault, as they kept changing things on him, but he accepted the money in good faith and lost it. Still his responsibility with hisna,e being on the dotted line.

When you're talking 2 or 3,000 locations, the only smart way is to network and find people in sectors to do this work for you. S101 would be a grand way to accomplish this. Doing this on your own will be foolish and probably ruin your marriage, busienss and any future for you.

Now, this could all change as you add in still more information. See how the trickle down works ?? You give a little information at a time, then feed us more little by little. It's frustrating to us, but our livelihood wouldn't depend on it, like yours will.

Wanted to respond this this post.

I have thought about this trickle thing being brought up. It seems as I made my initial post, people started asking questions. To which I needed to answer them, and it brought out more information. It was never my intent to drag you or anyone along, and for that I apologize.
Perhaps in future posts like this, I will think better about how to articulate the original posting. To be honest, I didn't know how much info was enough or not enough, so I started the thread with what I thought was relevant.

I just dislike the assumption I somehow have done this on purpose or to make you annoyed. I apologized earlier in the thread for this, and I do it again. If you can't drop it at this point, nothing else I can do about that.

Thanks again for trying to help.

 

[TimToad]

I also was one of the first posters to wish you good luck and I honestly hope in the end, the job turns out perfectly and according to your stated goals. I wish everybody on these pages 100% success at every endeavor they undertake.

That being said, as the thread has progressed, you've appeared to me at least to be hellbent on getting this job whether it pencils out or not. The devil is in the details, so in a year, we'll all see how it went for you.

I've contributed about all I think is relevant and really hope it all goes as planned.

 

[HulkSmash]

Wanted to respond this this post.

I have thought about this trickle thing being brought up. It seems as I made my initial post, people started asking questions. To which I needed to answer them, and it brought out more information. It was never my intent to drag you or anyone along, and for that I apologize.
Perhaps in future posts like this, I will think better about how to articulate the original posting. To be honest, I didn't know how much info was enough or not enough, so I started the thread with what I thought was relevant.

I just dislike the assumption I somehow have done this on purpose or to make you annoyed. I apologized earlier in the thread for this, and I do it again. If you can't drop it at this point, nothing else I can do about that.

Thanks again for trying to help.

I'd also be annoyed in your case, especially with people saying it could not get done. Because if you have the drive, you WILL get it done.. and we don't know you.

BUT Gino and others are right, things out of your control always seem to happen on the easiest jobs. It's best to do is plan for the worse, hope for the best.

Good luck on the job, and don't be afraid to utilize other installers you trust in areas that would be hard for you to get to.

 

[jkdbjj]

I also was one of the first posters to wish you good luck and I honestly hope in the end, the job turns out perfectly and according to your stated goals. I wish everybody on these pages 100% success at every endeavor they undertake.

That being said, as the thread has progressed, you've appeared to me at least to be hellbent on getting this job whether it pencils out or not. The devil is in the details, so in a year, we'll all see how it went for you.

I've contributed about all I think is relevant and really hope it all goes as planned.

I just spent some time re-reading the whole thread. I did that because I do care about what I say and how I communicate.

You are correct you were a first responder, and thank you for that.
As mentioned a moment ago, I apologize for the trickle effect. I simply was trying to respond to the questions asked.

I would definitely turn this job down, if it was not organized like it is. I am convinced these people are super proficient as they deal with this day in and day out internationally, and it has been a pleasure to work with them so far.

I've mentioned a few times sense the OP that I will have to hire a few people along the way, and that is something I am working on. I have until April to sort that bit out. As much as it would be cool to do it myself and my little crew, it doesn't add up. I am just happy they are giving me the chance to manage that process.

Thanks again for the well wishes. I truly believe most people on here are just trying to help. It is why I came here. What ended up happening, is the company I will be working for made it so easy to say yes to the job, it just worked out very well. So while at the same time I am trying to talk here and get advice, they are on the other end making it easy to accept. I realize it isn't like that all the time, as such I am extremely grateful for the opportunity.

 

[jkdbjj]

I'd also be annoyed in your case, especially with people saying it could not get done. Because if you have the drive, you WILL get it done.. and we don't know you.

BUT Gino and others are right, things out of your control always seem to happen on the easiest jobs. It's best to do is plan for the worse, hope for the best.

Good luck on the job, and don't be afraid to utilize other installers you trust in areas that would be hard for you to get to.

Thanks! You are correct we all know stuff comes up. I think that is what made it so easy to work with the company hiring me, is because they do this on a daily basis, so if anyone knows how to deal with stuff that comes up, they do. It will be them dealing with the corporate client when things come up, not me. So far, to date, I have met the corporate executives as they inspect the stores, and the relationship seems strong.

I think if this was some fly by night cabinet company it would be a whole nother ball game, but so far nothing but confidence from everyone on getting this job done.

I know for sure, we are coming to your area around May, as I understand it they want to do Arizona and Colorado together. I will certainly have to find a couple installers to help with that. I will be coming out myself, but not my crew, as I think it is cheaper to find local, rather than bring my crew and put them up. At least in my head that makes more sense at the moment.

 

[Pat Whatley]

Seriously, this job is eaten up with potential to become a disaster, for deadlines to get screwy, for the cabinet company to put all those crews of theirs to work and knock their part out in a month leaving you to scramble and try to figure out how to get a job done in six weeks you thought you'd have a year to do, bad weather, the plague, zombies and anything else that comes along. That said....if this job came my way you'd better believe I'd be figuring out how to do it just like you are. There's too much money to be made to just walk away from it and realistically the worst thing that can happen is you realize a month in that you can't handle it on your own and you get some help. Shouldn't be too big an issue.

Best of luck to you.

Fortune favors the brave, my friend.

 

[Rick]

A while back Gigi posted a thread similar, we were looking to get involved
with fabricating signs with a company that had 1800 properties. We already
design for 3 of the largest property management companies. Getting a piece
of that would be nice as we are close to the project already, and have enough
knowledge of how to do it. We are getting closer to making that happen but
are very cautious... mostly because of the logistics.

I have project managed jobs with much more complicated issues than just
slapping vinyl on walls. I was the guy who had to locate qualified installers
for electrical and indoor displays. Once I found a company to service every
location for their particular expertise, it made my life much easier and kept
the work under budget.

I agree with many of the warnings given... BUT! It really helps being young,
naive, inexperienced... this 52 year old is too old to travel around lugging my
arse up ladders or squeegeeing miles of vinyl on walls. Another thing is, maybe
this type of work suits you... and others posting may not have that particular talent.
As much as this job has a potential to blow up in your face... it has the same
potential to make you some money. I have always been too cautious. I hate
traveling, I don't like being away from my family... so I wouldn't do it for any
price. That said, maybe I would have lamented the thought that this was the
job that could have lead to better opportunities.

You know, if it doesn't work out... it's an easy job to walk away from...

One thing that hit home was you taking your son with you. I will tell you, I
wouldn't trade my experience with my son traveling around for the world. We
have been to so many sites, especially in DC. We ate at a lot of great places
had great conversations, and seen so many cool things.

There is one thing to disagree with someone, but to start calling them names
or questioning their motivation to post is pure bull$hit. I never thought you were
bragging... I mean really, it's slapping vinyl on a wall... WHOOPDIDOOO!!!
(I was called out for bragging too... it's simply a dick way of getting an emotional response)

I see someone trying to provide for his family... I say: I hope this works out and
I'm interested in its outcome.

 

[jkdbjj]

Loop back to the beginning of the thread

Thanks Pat!

I wanted to take a second a put some perspective on this thread. On my original posting my main question was specifically about approach to pricing a job like this.

It was only when someone other than I, decided to start saying how the job can't be done, and all of that. To Colorados point, that is really annoying, when I never sought advice on "how I should follow a cabinet company", "if the job is possible", "what to do if there are security badges" on and on.

Sure it's possible to attach cost and bids to some of those factors, but I was pretty specific in the OP.

The job was 75sqft store. You would do quite a few stores in one geographical area before moving on. The install takes between 1-2 hours depending on who is doing it. The stores will be ready when you show up.

Based on those criteria, is the fee of 250 to small, considering I will be doing 5 per day, 5-6 days per week.

That's it folks, nothing more. I did not bring into the conversation loading docs, or anything else. I am asking you to assume the job is clean, and as explained. I am asking you to assume the company has their stuff together.

Yes, stuff comes up, and obviously there would need to be safeguards to protect in cases of out of the ordinary circumstances.

So, to circle back around it is amazing how a thread can get so emotional and derailed. It was a specific question, with specific answers needed. Some did it beautifully. Some offered warnings. Some decided to get personal.

Wow, what a trip!

 

[jkdbjj]

A while back Gigi posted a thread similar, we were looking to get involved
with fabricating signs with a company that had 1800 properties. We already
design for 3 of the largest property management companies. Getting a piece
of that would be nice as we are close to the project already, and have enough
knowledge of how to do it. We are getting closer to making that happen but
are very cautious... mostly because of the logistics.

I have project managed jobs with much more complicated issues than just
slapping vinyl on walls. I was the guy who had to locate qualified installers
for electrical and indoor displays. Once I found a company to service every
location for their particular expertise, it made my life much easier and kept
the work under budget.

I agree with many of the warnings given... BUT! It really helps being young,
naive, inexperienced... this 52 year old is too old to travel around lugging my
arse up ladders or squeegeeing miles of vinyl on walls. Another thing is, maybe
this type of work suits you... and others posting may not have that particular talent.
As much as this job has a potential to blow up in your face... it has the same
potential to make you some money. I have always been too cautious. I hate
traveling, I don't like being away from my family... so I wouldn't do it for any
price. That said, maybe I would have lamented the thought that this was the
job that could have lead to better opportunities.

You know, if it doesn't work out... it's an easy job to walk away from...

One thing that hit home was you taking your son with you. I will tell you, I
wouldn't trade my experience with my son traveling around for the world. We
have been to so many sites, especially in DC. We ate at a lot of great places
had great conversations, and seen so many cool things.

There is one thing to disagree with someone, but to start calling them names
or questioning their motivation to post is pure bull$hit. I never thought you were
bragging... I mean really, it's slapping vinyl on a wall... WHOOPDIDOOO!!!
(I was called out for bragging too... it's simply a dick way of getting an emotional response)

I see someone trying to provide for his family... I say: I hope this works out and
I'm interested in its outcome.

Wow, thanks! It does suit me very well. While it is no ones business, I am definitely excited to try new restaurants with my son, he wants to be a chef.

It took me a moment to even catch the fact, that I did not derail this thread. I simply provided info, and started getting comments about me holding info back, the rest is history.

All I wanted was some advice on if I was lowballing or doing OK. It turns out I am doing OK, end of discussion, right? Well, I guess not for everyone it seems.

I am glad to hear about your times with your boy, life is to short, and I intend to maximize it the best I can with my little guy (not so little anymore). He keeps challenging me to arm wrestle to see if he is getting close Not yet.

Also, you might be glad to know, there are no ladders, all install is standing on my feet, or occasionally sitting inside the cabinet area. I couldn't really dream up a more attractive install.

 

[Rick]

Here is me and my son at the Lincoln Memorial... We just surveyed 3 properties
and I was dog tired, but he really insisted on walking the National Mall, we're from
California so this is an adventure... and a learning experience... we got to the top of
the steps, my son yells out "JENNYYYYY" and seconds later, a voice from far away
yells out "FOOOORREEEEST!!!"... so much for the history lesson...