klingsdesigns
New Member
I have also noticed this. Very easy to separate laminate from the vinyl printed surfaces or not.
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8048 Shrinking
- Thread starter klingsdesigns
- Start date
HulkSmash
New Member
It always amazes me when people put calendared vinyl on vehicles and asks "what's going on".
Take it from someone who has tried cutting corners and using the cheap stuff.. not worth it. ANYTHING on a vehicle gets cast.. Period.
stop risking your business reputation to save a few dollars
Take it from someone who has tried cutting corners and using the cheap stuff.. not worth it. ANYTHING on a vehicle gets cast.. Period.
stop risking your business reputation to save a few dollars
klingsdesigns
New Member
What do you use day to day for cast on vehicles? I am all game to switching cast for vehicles and everything if I will not see failures. I am so annoyed with vinyl failing. I have used oracal 651 for vehicles since 2005 and never had an issue so figured for flat surfaces you can use calandered printed. I wasn’t doing it for being it’s cheaper. I have had better issues with contour cuts then cast.
klingsdesigns
New Member
One more thing. What do you use calandered for then or do you not even stock it.
GaSouthpaw
Profane and profane accessories.
Our shop doesn't do a lot of cut vinyl anymore, but none of it is calendared, except- maybe- that eight year old roll of glow in the dark stuff that's had maybe 10' cut off of it in all that time.
The only print media we have that isn't cast that we've bought is what's left of a roll of Oracal 3640 that a cheapskate customer insisted on. It's been in the shop for three years now, and we've printed (maybe) two jobs on it for them. The only other time we use calendared is when it's sent to us by one of our contracts for specific jobs- but they always send a compatible laminate, as well. When our salespeople ask about materials for jobs, I will always try to steer them away from calendared unless the job is short term. As someone else mentioned, it's not worth the risk to your rep to use material that isn't right for the job.
My .02.
The only print media we have that isn't cast that we've bought is what's left of a roll of Oracal 3640 that a cheapskate customer insisted on. It's been in the shop for three years now, and we've printed (maybe) two jobs on it for them. The only other time we use calendared is when it's sent to us by one of our contracts for specific jobs- but they always send a compatible laminate, as well. When our salespeople ask about materials for jobs, I will always try to steer them away from calendared unless the job is short term. As someone else mentioned, it's not worth the risk to your rep to use material that isn't right for the job.
My .02.
8048 isn't a calandered. It's not a pvc product so it's made completely different. It technically shouldn't shrink. Even 8508 isn't a calandered. It's an intermediate cast.
We use 180 + 8518 on 99% of vehicle wraps... We mainly use 8048 for our flat signage that doesn't need to last 10 years.
Ij40 + 8508 is perfectly fine for vehicle decals that are flat / semi conformable...we used it on the tailgate of our work truck about 4 years ago to test and it's still sticking, and looking as good as the 180 right besides it.
Most prints will fade before 10 years.... So any signs that need to last, we screen print.
SightLine
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For us - cut vinyls. Mostly Oracal 751. Print for vehicles - Avery 1105 with 1060 (the thicker lam has a better life, easier install) or 3M 180mc with 8548G. I hate 3M prices but it is still about the best out there in my opinion. Especially if your customers are loyal and come back to you a few years later to remove it, it is a dream to remove (unless some idiot amatuer installer used primer with a paint roller). So sure, you can save a little on the front end (and maybe pass some of that savings onto your customer) but you really done your customer a disservice if you later have to charge them $1000 to remove it in 4 years instead of $300....
HulkSmash
New Member
"Intermediate Cast" Is a fancy word for calendared. Sorry to inform you. Also what is the actual point of using cheap garbage on vehicles? I mean what are you really saving?
Calandered is squishing vinyl into shape. Cast is using a mold and pouring it.
Intermediate cast isnt made the same way as calandered is... It's made with a mold and flowed out. At least 8508 is... You can confirm with your 3M rep if you'd like, we did. The reason 8518 is more expensive is because it's close to optically clear.
Ij40 is a calandered... But it's a polymeric calandered,not a monomeric. For non curved items such as a sign, or a flat graphic on a vehicle it works perfectly fine... We've never experienced it shrinking, even on signs that have been out facing the sun for years.
Why use it over 180? It's half the cost.... Which is quite a bit of savings considering how much we've used.
Put it this way, do you use 180 for all your signs? ij40 is a 7 year vinyl. By then most ink will start to fade or the sign will look like crap. Most vehicles we decal are for work vehicles.... And it's rare they keep the same graphics or the same vehicle for 7 years.
Small graphics going on a flat area... Ij40 is fine. Doing a full wrap? We use 180.
Ij40 has its place. Most shops hear calandered and associate it with trash. 3M polymeric calandered is pretty good. 3M wouldn't warranty it for as long as they do, and approve it for vehicle use if it wasn't meant to be used.
But again... If you're trying to wrap a bumper with ij 40 you're an idiot. 480 for bumpers.and huge curves... 180 for the rest of the car... With Ij40 for decals and other flat areas.
Each vinyl has its use. If you use it properly, you won't get early failures or irate customers. We'd never use cheap vinyl and risk our reputation over it. We've been in business for 30+ years... We're 3M gold certified and preferred, we wouldn't risk ruining that to save a few bucks. But we also don't over spec something when it doesn't need to be.
Intermediate cast isnt made the same way as calandered is... It's made with a mold and flowed out. At least 8508 is... You can confirm with your 3M rep if you'd like, we did. The reason 8518 is more expensive is because it's close to optically clear.
Ij40 is a calandered... But it's a polymeric calandered,not a monomeric. For non curved items such as a sign, or a flat graphic on a vehicle it works perfectly fine... We've never experienced it shrinking, even on signs that have been out facing the sun for years.
Why use it over 180? It's half the cost.... Which is quite a bit of savings considering how much we've used.
Put it this way, do you use 180 for all your signs? ij40 is a 7 year vinyl. By then most ink will start to fade or the sign will look like crap. Most vehicles we decal are for work vehicles.... And it's rare they keep the same graphics or the same vehicle for 7 years.
Small graphics going on a flat area... Ij40 is fine. Doing a full wrap? We use 180.
Ij40 has its place. Most shops hear calandered and associate it with trash. 3M polymeric calandered is pretty good. 3M wouldn't warranty it for as long as they do, and approve it for vehicle use if it wasn't meant to be used.
But again... If you're trying to wrap a bumper with ij 40 you're an idiot. 480 for bumpers.and huge curves... 180 for the rest of the car... With Ij40 for decals and other flat areas.
Each vinyl has its use. If you use it properly, you won't get early failures or irate customers. We'd never use cheap vinyl and risk our reputation over it. We've been in business for 30+ years... We're 3M gold certified and preferred, we wouldn't risk ruining that to save a few bucks. But we also don't over spec something when it doesn't need to be.
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CanuckSigns
Active Member
We wrapped a sprinter van a few months ago with the IJ480 and the matching gloss laminate (can't remember the number). When we were trimming we noticed the laminate separating from the vinyl. Took a printed test piece and was able to seperate the vinyl and laminate extremely easily, and the laminate took up 100% of the ink with it.
Reported it to my 3m dealer, they came and took samples to send to 3m, that was about 4 months ago, still no word back from 3m, even with monthly reminders.
I wont be buying any more, that's for sure, 3m doesn't stand behind their products as far as I'm concerned.
klingsdesigns
New Member
What printer and inks are you using? Did you let outgas enough time?
The matching overlam is 8548... Which is the long term.version of 8048. You must have had a bad roll, we do lots of 480/8548 wraps and it's never easy to delaminate.
Did your supplier give you the correct 480? There's sv480 and lx480, SV for solvent and LX for latex. Ij480 without the LX/SV hasn't been made in years... So if it was just IJ480 the roll must have been a few years old... Which could also explain the adhesion issue.
We've had laminate that didn't stick well before. Our reps sent us a new roll. We spent the day peeling the old overlam off and re-laming it...so it wasn't painless. But our reps pretty good at following up. They do ocasionay have a bad roll or two in a batch, no manufacturing process is perfect. Our reps great in communicating and handling it though..I'm sure every rep is different.
Were 3M gold preferred, so we're "obliged" to use only 3M products. Otherwise I'd be trying new stuff... I hate 3M for wrapping! It leaves too many glue lines if you need to reposition.
Christian @ 2CT Media
Active Member
This right here is why we won't become MCS certified... I'm not going to commit to only using 3M. We are really happy with Avery as a company they have been super committed to making sure we know their product, get us answers, and have the support to win jobs.
It certainly has it's ups and downs. We told them straight up theres some colors in avery we need, and will be sticking to Avery. But we're a "Preffered" 3M shop, so 99% of our product is 3M. We only use avery where we absolutely need to... I also bring in Oracal because 3M can't compete with their high tac glue. I love the way Vivvid is so low tack and goes on easy... It's thick, and you can lift and reposition a million times with no glue lines, it's a dream to install compared to 3M... but it's "Too cheap and we never heard of the brand before so it must be garbage" so the bosses wont let me wrap a customers car in it... Meanwhile I wrapped my co-workers car in it, it's been 3 years and not a single lift 
I think each brand has their strengths. I know we spend 1.2 mil a year at 3M so we're in a pretty good discount bracket, so thats another reason they try to force us to use 3M on everything... 3M ends up being the cheapest option, unless we switch everything over to Avery and get their discount,m but too many of our government contracts demand 3M so we can't.
I'd love to try Arlon, or even oracals wraps, or many of the other materials they make that 3M doesn't. I kind of feel like 3M doesn't compete and come out with new products anymore... they have enough market grab that they don't need to.
I think each brand has their strengths. I know we spend 1.2 mil a year at 3M so we're in a pretty good discount bracket, so thats another reason they try to force us to use 3M on everything... 3M ends up being the cheapest option, unless we switch everything over to Avery and get their discount,m but too many of our government contracts demand 3M so we can't.
I'd love to try Arlon, or even oracals wraps, or many of the other materials they make that 3M doesn't. I kind of feel like 3M doesn't compete and come out with new products anymore... they have enough market grab that they don't need to.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Sorry it was the 480sv, printed on our Epson s80600, it was left to outgas for a week before we laminated it.
I understand that there are bad batches in everything, but the fact that 3M has yet to get back to me after about 4 months has left a bad taste in my mouth.
Christian @ 2CT Media
Active Member
Don't worry, it's not their fault... You did something wrong.
SightLine
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................... I also bring in Oracal because 3M can't compete with their high tac glue. I love the way Vivvid is so low tack and goes on easy... It's thick, and you can lift and reposition a million times with no glue lines, it's a dream to install compared to 3M... but it's "Too cheap and we never heard of the brand before so it must be garbage" so the bosses wont let me wrap a customers car in it... Meanwhile I wrapped my co-workers car in it, it's been 3 years and not a single lift
I think each brand has their strengths. I know we spend 1.2 mil a year at 3M so we're in a pretty good discount bracket, so thats another reason they try to force us to use 3M on everything... 3M ends up being the cheapest option, unless we switch everything over to Avery and get their discount,m but too many of our government contracts demand 3M so we can't.
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Had bad experiences with Oracal high tack. We pretty much ended up tossing half a roll as every time we used it adhesive would ooze out on the printer getting on the preheat platen, print platen, all over the media edge guides, post heater, etc....
One of the most important keys for us on wrap vinyls is not so much the ease of install (that is also very important among other things) but ease of removal. Who cares if it prints geat, installs great, looks great if it leaves 95% of the adhesive when removed and constantly rips and whatnot than the savings on the material was for nothing...... Every single time in the past 15 years I have tried an off brand it has blown up in my face either with material failure (shrinking, peeling at edges, etc) or a total nightmare to remove.
On the warranty issue.... that is an odd one. I suspect a bad roll of vinyl or lx mislabelled as sv. You printed that with eco-solvent inks. Solvent inks should to an extent become part of the vinyl, literally they should partially "melt" into the surface. If 100% of the ink comes up stuck to the lam, something is seriously wrong. If you are direct with 3M, no idea what to tell you. If you buy through a supplier (my guess is you do), call your sales rep and complain. I can call Grimco, Fellers, etc if we have a defect problem and they handle it. They send us a new roll and get the remaining defective (and printed if possible) back to them with a return shipping label. I can also email our 3M rep as well if needed and he will step in as well.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
If that is the case than I would like them to let me know what I did wrong, I've been printing for 15 years and never seen anything like this, unless this product requires some special processes than every other vinyl/laminate i've ever worked with, I don't think I did anything wrong
Printed on an Epson S80600, which is eligible for the 3M MCS program, so it shouldn't be an ink issue
left it to outgas for a week loosely rolled up
laminated on or seal laminator
trimmed and installed as normal, when the graphic was trimmed on the van is when we noticed the issue.
Christian @ 2CT Media
Active Member
Believe me, I'm still waiting after 5 years to know how we caused 20 100yard rolls of 8508 to shrink and delaminate.
HulkSmash
New Member
We stock calendered stuff like IJ35C for just simple decals and stuff.. that are not going on vehicles.