Are sign professionals just giving up?

[Texas_Signmaker]

Todays example. I'm in the library this morning perusing facebook and on one of the pages pops up someone asking if any one does decals for those steel cups that seem to be everywhere. You should have seen how many cricket owners as well as "shop" owners jumped on it. If you have a 12" plotter apparently around here you are an advertising agency.

Why were you on Facebook in a library?

 

[d fleming]

The library, ie, the potty (first thing every morning), Facebook because like the doctors office, all the magazines are at least a decade old.

 

[Sandman]

I agree neato and the evidence of either giving up or just plain inability to educate the customer is the plethora of butt ugly font ID requests in the font section. 90% of the fonts requesting an ID should never be on a sign or part of a logo.

 

[TimToad]

Dwindling middle class and the absence of good paying jobs has made industries like sign professions muddled with sign professional wannbe's.

Sign artists are far and few between.

I'd add the commodification of nearly everything about our craft into a simple square footage price and deep incursions into the industry by what used to be strictly wholesale trade printers who now deal directly with the public also hasn't helped. That activity has forced many a sign company to lower their prices to below a sustainable level in order to compete and not look like they are gouging the customers who go online and present estimates showing huge savings.

We do our best to extol the virtues of using local, independent vendors who pay family level wages and benefits, but its like swimming against a monster rip tide.

We're the only shop in our area with a flatbed printer, but we can't compete for any political sign work unless its oversized work with multiple colors where the shipping costs and extra color charges put us in a competitive position. In the past, candidates would state their preference to use local, independent businesses even if it cost more, but that has gone out the window as online prices have literally dropped to the ridiculous.

We all see it with other trades too. There are now large, corporate backed HVAC, plumbing, roto rooting, auto glass, etc. franchises who have far more advertising budget and economies of scale to squeeze the life out of the small, local independents.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

It's hard to stay passionate and not cave to the "let's just do it like this anyway" type of customer when you know they can take their ugly design and get it made for the half the price online. Granted, it'll be ugly, cheap, and probably need to be replaced in a few months, but a lot of customers don't know any different and/or don't care. All they see is "this is my design and this guy wants $200 to make this sign, but I can just take my GIF and upload it here and click this button and I'll have the sign in three days for $75!"

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

I'd add the commodification of nearly everything about our craft into a simple square footage price and deep incursions into the industry by what used to be strictly wholesale trade printers who now deal directly with the public also hasn't helped. That activity has forced many a sign company to lower their prices to below a sustainable level in order to compete and not look like they are gouging the customers who go online and present estimates showing huge savings.

We do our best to extol the virtues of using local, independent vendors who pay family level wages and benefits, but its like swimming against a monster rip tide.

We're the only shop in our area with a flatbed printer, but we can't compete for any political sign work unless its oversized work with multiple colors where the shipping costs and extra color charges put us in a competitive position. In the past, candidates would state their preference to use local, independent businesses even if it cost more, but that has gone out the window as online prices have literally dropped to the ridiculous.

We all see it with other trades too. There are now large, corporate backed HVAC, plumbing, roto rooting, auto glass, etc. franchises who have far more advertising budget and economies of scale to squeeze the life out of the small, local independents.

100%

Kind of what I was hinting at in my post. It's all starting to feel very Sisyphean. Especially when you lose a big project to someone undercutting everybody by 40-50% and the finished product is absolute garbage.

 

[fresh]

Eh. We are busier than ever and we get fewer "that's just the way its got to be" clients than we used to.

BUT we also weathered the storm. All of the sign franchises near me (3 of them) went out of business in the past few years. The other smaller companies have been around for 30+ years and they are all getting ready to retire / close. Hopefully once they close up we'll get their work, too. I should say more of the their work. We've already won new clients in the past year because our designs, quality, and prices are great.

If someone wants cheap, thats okay, I have way too many clients with real money who want quality to fret over it.

 

[Gino]

That's the perfect answer.

 

[rjssigns]

For certain jobs I nod, smile and collect a check. For others I expend the effort to make sure the client is happy. Those are the clients that understand it's not just a sign, but the face of their business.

 

[Arlo Kalon 2.0]

I'll never forget the first time I stopped into the first Signs Now franchise to open in my city. There was a 4 x 8 sign they had just finished that was totally devoid of any margins or negative space, completely loaded with copy all in the same size font. They were proud of it. They volunteered that they got $125 for it, including delivery. I told them I had just finished a 4 x 8 that I got $350 for and the customer was picking it up. Their reply was "we'll make it up in volume". I guess they did, eventually. After the franchises obliterated the pricing structure, they plastered vinyl everywhere with no concept of layout design. Hell, the Signs Now owner was a recently retired full bird colonel in the Air Force. He could fly anything with wings but didn't have a clue as to proper layout design. Fast forward thirty years and countless more just like him have proliferated.

I began getting over my enchantment with and love of signmaking several years ago after having several run ins with people bringing in their own designs and wanting them done. I had more than one person turn around and leave after telling them their layout sucked and I wouldn't do it. I'm fortunate to have experienced a very rewarding number of years in this trade. Most of those years I was the highest paid person in any shop I worked at. I had my own business long enough to raise three kids while working out of a home based shop building. I gave it all up and retired at the age of 58. Now I have a shop building on my property at my beautiful new home way out in the country. I hand letter interior decor signs I sell at a number of craft fairs, and usually come away from them with a custom order. I get to do what I want and continue as a signpainter, which I became the old school way of apprenticing with three masters. I also spent four years pinstriping motorcycles at the now defunct American IronHorse motorcycle assembly plant. In that time I striped over two thousand v twins. With my new shop I will once again start striping bikes as soon as I've striped my cargo van I also recently hand lettered.

I don't miss a single bit dealing with customers who have no ability to be educated on the merits of effective design. I really don't care either because I get to do design work every day that fulfills me and goes a long way towards paying my mortgage on a beautiful property in the middle of rural Texas horse country. I'll put it this way, I'm a lot happier than a few friends seem to be who still are fighting the uphill battle every day. Not only did I have it made once before in the sign trade, but I definitely have it made now.

 

[OceanShoreGraphics]

My latest slogan is 'The Customer is Always Wrong". But we keep that in house. I feel a lot of this is the dumbing down of society in general. Smart phones make stupid people. Square layouts to fit on a 4'8, horrible fonts, way too much wording, etc. has driven me to just smile and agree with those who don't wish to be told the harsh truth. We get plenty of others, the good kind, the ones who say, I'll leave it up to you, you're the expert, and that makes it worth while. For a bit. But in all honesty, 20+ years of this has gotten old. Real old. Those in a rush, who never reply, the ones who won't drop a few extra bucks for decent materials, and the ever increasing too many chefs companies, have worn me out. I'll take their money, and give them the best quality I can for the price, but I have learned to know when my input isn't wanted. I think a poor housing market still recovering from the collapse is partly to blame, along with stagnant wages for the poor and middle class. Getting a tip used to be the norm for us, now is all but extinct. OK, rant over. Peace.

 

[Rick]

You're making me think Rick. I'm not complaining about my customers, the sign shops I do work for are all great, great clients. I think they're just dealing with a different public than even 10-15 years ago.

I do wonder about going after some of the higher end work sometimes, but I would have to up my design game too. Without going to work for someone else, it's tough to find information or training on sign design. My biggest handicap is that I don't know a ton about materials and construction techniques.

As long as you have been doing this, and as good as you really are... c'mon now, your'e pretty darn good - you should not be dealing with the same "type" of client as you did when you started or 10-15 years ago.

On the materials thing, design the sign, have the sign shop guide you as to how it's built. Download any sign package you can get your hands on and study how a sign is built... if thats too hard, or hire someone to do the call out part of it, and guide you through the code parts, that way you get the fun part, someone else sweats the small stuff.

Be careful not to fall into the trap of having 15 years in the business, with 5 years experience done 3 times. Since you really only design, you MIGHT be stuck in the "sign shop" designer mode.

I've been thinking about that Chatterbox guy - re-read his book recently, I wonder if he'll ever get around to fixing his book and adding more information to it. That was a missed opportunity...

 

[OceanShoreGraphics]

Here is a prime example of "The customer knows best". This image has been cropped to remove the top third of the sign containing the logo and phone number (required on all their signage for 'branding') in an effort to protect the innocent. The font and colors are the same as in the logo, and the world would come to a screeching halt if anything else were to even be considered. This is what They want, this is what makes Them happy, are we really supposed to argue? They love us, and they LOVE the work we do for them, can we even broach the subject of looks and legibility?

 

[visual800]

its a losing battle that at my age do not care to fight any longer. I have come from the era where my art sold the sign......no longer is that true. Price trumps design...Friends Trump professionals.

For the past few years i always do a side by side. my layout next to their thoughtless bundle of typography crap. I use to win possibly 80-90% of those, now? I rarely win at all anymore. My attitude (along with many other designers in this town) is very negative. My creativity is almost gone. It is very sad and it makes the whole town look horrible

 

[HDvinyl]

Phillip, I can sell you some of my "THIS SIGN WAS DESIGNED BY THE CUSTOMER" decals for the back of the signs.

 

[visual800]

We lost this battle a couple years back and I really think this was the straw that broke me. I was very excited to work on this. Beautiful new building on main road. Excellent architecture....this would have been a high dollar sign that was well deserving of the money that it took to build the building. Another sign guy knew I was designing this and one day sent me a snapshot of the "finished product" i sent email to the owner and inquired about his sign. He said "we got a better deal than what you offered."

 

[Rick]

We lost this battle a couple years back and I really think this was the straw that broke me. I was very excited to work on this. Beautiful new building on main road. Excellent architecture....this would have been a high dollar sign that was well deserving of the money that it took to build the building. Another sign guy knew I was designing this and one day sent me a snapshot of the "finished product" i sent email to the owner and inquired about his sign. He said "we got a better deal than what you offered."

woof!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

We lost this battle a couple years back and I really think this was the straw that broke me. I was very excited to work on this. Beautiful new building on main road. Excellent architecture....this would have been a high dollar sign that was well deserving of the money that it took to build the building. Another sign guy knew I was designing this and one day sent me a snapshot of the "finished product" i sent email to the owner and inquired about his sign. He said "we got a better deal than what you offered."

Sounds like a company around here, you sure it's not my competition?

 

[visual800]

Sounds like a company around here, you sure it's not my competition?

ha! the company that did this is horrible at designing. BUT they will smack your price at any cost. Spiteful folks

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

ha! the company that did this is horrible at designing. BUT they will smack your price at any cost. Spiteful folks

I did an initial layout and bid for an apartment complex here, it was going to be a Peachtree foamcraft sign. They have some really good layouts.

Another sign company got the job and this was what they went with. Monument looked nice, but they used silly RED bubble plastic letters on it.. not sized right or placed right.. It had potential