Arizona law and signmakers

[Locals Find!]

do you understand making a point? it is when you make a statement to show that you normally don't need to bring it up. so yes, I "worked" it into the conversation as I was making a point that I never need to tell anyone what I am as it is considered the "norm". what I consider the "norm" is people are people and who cares about the rest. we shouldn't have separate rules for those deemed "different" and that is just what this entire thread is about, the attempt to do just that. get it now Gino or do you just want to say stuff for the sake of saying it so you can fight about something?



just because we don't care what gender/marital status or whatever else doesn't mean we all love each other as there will always be jerks out there. treating each other as equals does mean we all love each other. thought you were smarter than this

I believe the point Gino was trying to make and maybe I am wrong. We don't need the Government or any other group for that matter forcing everyone to get along. That is a very slippery slope. Most of us don't want the Government mandating to us that we get along with others. We all agree slavery is bad, racism is bad. However, I don't like the Government getting involved in my life or choices on why I like or dislike. Who I want to do business with or don't. I want to retain my right to refuse service for any reason I choose.

When you start letting someone else make decisions for you, your giving up more of your personal freedom to those in power. Where does it end? Today it's the LGBT community getting special treatment tomorrow it is something else. Before you know it they are telling you what artwork your allowed to create and what is approved and not approved. Then eventually comes elimination of the undesirables from a society. Social Engineering is a bad thing. No way around it.

Ask the Gypsies and Jews how well social engineering worked out for them in Nazi Germany.

Let people feel how they want to feel don't force them to accept who you are. I don't ask any of you to accept who I am. I don't force Gino to do business with me. I respect his right to tell me to go pound sand.

I served this country and sacrificed my youth to uphold his right to do this. Let's drop this "lets all get along" baloney and appreciate the ability to hate your neighbor without fear of reprisals is what makes America Great.

 

[Nelson Newbie]

I was watching a show on the History Channel about "What the Earth Is Worth". When they got to precious metals: gold, silver and platinum, they estimated it at around 14 trillion dollars for all that has ever been mined and all that remains to be mined. I cite that because the national debt of the United States is now up to 17 trillion dollars and growing. That works out to $48,571.00 owed by every man, woman and child.

It seems to me that an earlier post in this thread got it right when it was stated that stuff like this Arizona law is put out there to divert our attention away from larger, more important issues. Big government, big business, big media, and big everything else have all teamed up to divide us into partisan camps mostly concerned about anything else that will keep us from focusing on big issues.

 

[JR's]

I was watching a show on the History Channel about "What the Earth Is Worth". When they got to precious metals: gold, silver and platinum, they estimated it at around 14 trillion dollars for all that has ever been mined and all that remains to be mined. I cite that because the national debt of the United States is now up to 17 trillion dollars and growing. That works out to $48,571.00 owed by every man, woman and child.

It seems to me that an earlier post in this thread got it right when it was stated that stuff like this Arizona law is put out there to divert our attention away from larger, more important issues. Big government, big business, big media, and big everything else have all teamed up to divide us into partisan camps mostly concerned about anything else that will keep us from focusing on big issues.

 

[Gino]

do you understand making a point? it is when you make a statement to show that you normally don't need to bring it up. so yes, I "worked" it into the conversation as I was making a point that I never need to tell anyone what I am as it is considered the "norm". what I consider the "norm" is people are people and who cares about the rest. we shouldn't have separate rules for those deemed "different" and that is just what this entire thread is about, the attempt to do just that. get it now Gino or do you just want to say stuff for the sake of saying it so you can fight about something?



Just because we don't care what gender/marital status or whatever else doesn't mean we all love each other as there will always be jerks out there. treating each other as equals does mean we all love each other. thought you were smarter than this

Yes, I do understand making a point and to me that's what she did. She gave her reasoning based upon her upbringing, beliefs and lifestyle and took a big chance of being ridiculed on top of everything else. She made her point clear from a very personal standpoint. You just said, I'm straight, but don't have to admit it. Why, did you feel the need to interject you are straight and a woman ?? None of your reasoning was based on anything other than your feelings, which carry no weight. Facts are all that matter and hers came at a possible risk/price, but she explained them so you and everyone else would understand. It's not just an emotional outburst. She has something from which to pull from..... a lifetime of experience. Not saying you don't, but why feel sad for her or her saying something that is fact ?? What you consider the norm, what I consider the norm what Tammie considers the norm is just opinion, nothing more.

Do you think it's all hunky-dorry if we just go on thinking the 'Norm' is the 'Norm', huh ?? The heck with the rest, it will just work itself out if we say so and ignore it.

Do you realize, until recently for people who are what you call the 'abnorm'.... you'd never here of love songs on the radio for them ?? They had to listen about heterosexuals and dream. Television was all about the 'Norm' and the 'abnorm' were made fun of. There is a difference and no matter how you wanna make it all seem like hugs & kisses, we'll all remain different as long as you cater to one and not the other on equal playing fields. Now, they are starting to promote more and more of it, which seems to be shoved down our throats as it's a little overboard, but whose fault is it anyway ?? It's now getting into the religious aspects and even cultural backgrounds and beliefs. In fact, that new movie, 12 Years a Slave, I hear they wanna make it mandatory to be studied in schools in the near future. I don't know why. Do you ?? Seems as if it would keep the split even wider than need be... to meet your criteria.


So, while I might not be smarter than this...... I am certainly deeper than you thought.


















And Addie, Shut Up. Don't do my talking and make me sound dumb, like you. In the last 3 years or so of your being here, the only thing you said of any use is you served our country in the military. To what extent, I don't know and I don't want to know, so let it go.

 

[Steve C.]

You can not possibly say that this is about Equal Rights. In this case,
someones rights are lost which ever way you go. So we choose an
agenda to support.

 

[CES020]

You can not possibly say that this is about Equal Rights. In this case,
someones rights are lost which ever way you go.

Who's rights were lost when someone didn't want to bake them a cake? Was that the only cake maker in town? Did their wedding get ruined because there was no cake? There's a MASSIVE difference in what happened to Black people not being served and someone not being able to get their way and make someone do what they want done. It's a cake people, a cake. Don't like the business owners methods? Go to another cake baker. It's really that simple. Instead, it's about digging your heels in and making someone do something YOUR way because YOU wanted it done. To me, it's a technique of bullying. I'm going to bully you into submission and I'll get my way. It's not like there were signs up at every bakery in town that said "No cakes for same sex marriages".

And do you REALLY want to eat food that you MADE someone cook for you? I know I don't. If that were me, and they did make the cake, I'll be darned if I'd be brave enough to eat it.

Here's a trick- go to the next guy in the phone book to get your cake made.

 

[Steve C.]

Who's rights were lost when someone didn't want to bake them a cake? Was that the only cake maker in town? Did their wedding get ruined because there was no cake? There's a MASSIVE difference in what happened to Black people not being served and someone not being able to get their way and make someone do what they want done. It's a cake people, a cake. Don't like the business owners methods? Go to another cake baker. It's really that simple. Instead, it's about digging your heels in and making someone do something YOUR way because YOU wanted it done. To me, it's a technique of bullying. I'm going to bully you into submission and I'll get my way. It's not like there were signs up at every bakery in town that said "No cakes for same sex marriages".

And do you REALLY want to eat food that you MADE someone cook for you? I know I don't. If that were me, and they did make the cake, I'll be darned if I'd be brave enough to eat it.

Here's a trick- go to the next guy in the phone book to get your cake made.

Point taken. So if you put it that way, the only one who's right are imposed upon
are those of the baker and photographer.

 

[Locals Find!]

Point taken. So if you put it that way, the only one who's right are imposed upon
are those of the baker and photographer.

Which the law says, their rights are now null and void since they chose to open a business.

 

[Marlene]

You just said, I'm straight, but don't have to admit it. Why, did you feel the need to interject you are straight and a woman ?? None of your reasoning was based on anything other than your feelings, which carry no weight. Facts are all that matter and hers came at a possible risk/price, but she explained them so you and everyone else would understand.

well duh, my facts do come with no risk or price THAT WAS THE POINT and it shouldn't be for me or Tammie but it is. how are you not seeing that? there are people out there who's facts could, will and have had huge risks and having a law like the one we are talking about in this thread that would make that OK is wrong. in this case it was about the government making it OK to be a bigot, plain and simple. I am all for not doing business with a person you don't want to work with. what I'm not for is not doing business with someone just because they are gay and for no other reason. if your religion is so freaking strong you can't handle working with the public, passing a law to be able to be a bigot is more of big brother government going on than I'd be happy with

 

[Stanton]

I do not believe there is a cake maker who is not gay.


























.

 

[Steve C.]

just because they are gay and for no other reason. if your religion is so freaking strong you can't handle working with the public, passing a law to be able to be a bigot is more of big brother government going on than I'd be happy with

That is absolutely not true and I know your are smart enough to know it.

 

[bob]

...So if you put it that way, the only one who's right are imposed upon
are those of the baker and photographer.

Absolutely true.

The rights, being freedom of religion and the practice thereof, of the baker and the photographer are specifically and unequivocally enumerated in the constitution. The rights of the those wanting baked goods and/or photographs are not.

Consider a larger issue: Just how did it come about that less than 2% of the population developed some sort of strangle-hold on the other 98+ percent?

 

[Fred Weiss]

Consider a larger issue: Just how did it come about that less than 2% of the population developed some sort of strangle-hold on the other 98+ percent?

See post #62.

 

[Marlene]

Consider a larger issue: Just how did it come about that less than 2% of the population developed some sort of strangle-hold on the other 98+ percent?

so just who is in that 2% and 98%? are you saying 2% are gay and the 98% are who? do you think that 98% of "us" agree that it is OK that a law gets passed so that a business can turn away a member of the 2%? if that is your math, you are saddly off as 98% of us are not on the same bigot page as those who wanted this bill to go thru.

 

[Gino]

so just who is in that 2% and 98%? are you saying 2% are gay and the 98% are who? do you think that 98% of "us" agree that it is OK that a law gets passed so that a business can turn away a member of the 2%? if that is your math, you are saddly off as 98% of us are not on the same bigot page as those who wanted this bill to go thru.

The whole thing is still getting past you.

Earlier, I was talking about a one on one situation you brought up. However, this whole thing should not be about any laws written or unwritten to pass or reject for geighs, straight, brown, white, red or yellow, let alone Jewish Catholic, fat, skinny or grumpy. It has nothing to do with our government...... or should not. Whether or not the law passes or gets vetoed, it will eventually set a precedent for future extenuating circumstances and either one side of the fence or the other will cash in on it. The people themselves..... us the people and again regardless of your background will not benefit one iota. It is all power moves for our government who is setting the stage for future moves. Think of it kinda like an over-sized chess game. You lure your opponent in, [in this case, the opponent is ANYONE USA] into confrontation and watch how things unfold. Like testing the waters before they come in for the 'Real Kill'..... something they really want passed. They want to know how these petty little things [emotions] stand up to their ambitions or hidden agendas. This has been going on since the late 50's and early 60's, but all these groups for this organization or that group of people are only winning little battles. The war is only beginning. I'm not talking about overthrow or rebellion, but just plain losing our united voice.... We the People..... in practically anything coming down the pike. We are setting up our own doomsday.

Ever see the movie Soylent Green ?? Well, we're not gonna be eaten up by each other, but we are slowly being fed a bunch of hogwash as to what is and isn't good for us and they will make all the decisions for us. You watch and see.

 

[Marlene]

I think you are over thinking this Gino as it isn't doomsday or the end times or Soylent Green. this was a law to make it legal to not do business with gay people. I am not missing anything. if you are a person who has such strong religious reason for not doing business with a group, then that is up to you to figure out what you need to do, not the governments job to try to pass a law for you. we all know that religion might have been behind it but the end result would be the right to be a bigot and that is not OK for anyone.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Does anyone else find it ironic that those that are supposedly anti-big government think the solution to this "problem" is another law?

 

[Locals Find!]

I think you are over thinking this Gino as it isn't doomsday or the end times or Soylent Green. this was a law to make it legal to not do business with gay people. I am not missing anything. if you are a person who has such strong religious reason for not doing business with a group, then that is up to you to figure out what you need to do, not the governments job to try to pass a law for you. we all know that religion might have been behind it but the end result would be the right to be a bigot and that is not OK for anyone.

Actually, by defeating this law your allowing bigotry. For some help with the word you throw out so casually I have included its definition:

big·ot·ry
ˈbigətrē

noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries

• 1.
  bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.
  
  
  
  
  

So, since your opinion is intolerant of another persons opinion. Your actually a bigot yourself for not wanting the law to pass. Also, no where in the constitution does it define bigotry as a Right. Where it does define Freedom of Religion as a right, alongside freedom of speech and a few other unalienable rights.

So, saying that being a Bigot is not OK for anyone means everyone would have to share the same ideas and principles as everyone else. The only bigots this law affected were the ones being intolerant of others right to defend their constitutional right to Freedom of Religion.

Just putting things in perspective for you.

 

[Gino]

Does anyone else find it ironic that those that are supposedly anti-big government think the solution to this "problem" is another law?

No.



I have no idea where you came up with your theory, but myself..... I'm BIG-TIME anti-big government and I want laws removed from the books cause they are stoopid. They have their fingers into too many things already.

I've paid my taxes every year for the last 46 years and never was late.
I've paid into social systems which have not benefited me in the least.
I've paid debts to society for things I've never done or committed.
I've paid for improvements the government insists on but makes no sense.
I've donated to people and group/organizations without making known who did it.
I've been lumped in with certain groups and accused of things I never participated in, based purely on my make-up/profile.

Why do I need to have someone tell me who to be friends with or do business with ??
​

 

[Joe Diaz]

No.



I have no idea where you came up with your theory, but myself..... I'm BIG-TIME anti-big government and I want laws removed from the books cause they are stoopid. They have their fingers into too many things already.

​

You do realize that this was going to be an addition of a law, not the removal of one.