Art Charges

[bob]

Not sure bob, I'm not going to measure ____ with you. I've never seen your stuff. I'm sure it's great. Whether or not your stuff is superior to anyone else's, doesn't change the fact that a sign shop can "get away" with selling design as a service. It makes no difference if you think it's selling the emperor his new clothes, there are plenty of folks that don't see it that way and make it work. I'm not sure why you are so bitter towards those that do. If no one is better or worst, and no one makes a better or worst sign (which is ridiculous btw), what do you suggest we do about it, all charge the same price? I'm not sure where you heading with this, other than you don't like it that some people charge for design and you don't.

Sport, when I need words put into my mouth I'm perfectly competent to do so all by myself. I never said nor did I ever imply that anything I did was better than what anyone else has done. Nor did I say or imply that no one is better or worse. Some are better than others. Some are a whole hell of a lot better.

The point, such as it might be, is the notion of 'artwork' and whether or not that notion is sufficiently real as to be able to charge for it. I hold that, generally, it's ethereal, lacking in any real substance. Others do not. But then others are often lacking the perspective which would seem to be the result of starting out in the business long before the advent of the computer.

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't do art, I do synthesis. I combine, arrange, and manipulate other things to make a sign or t-shirt or whatever. Back when signs were painted you roughly, and I do mean roughly, laid it out with a chalk line, charcoal stick, and/or a Stabillo. Just some sketchy horizontal guides and a few seemingly meaningless vertical sketch marks to get the spacing clear in your mind. If you were doing more than one, you make a simple pounce pattern. Then you painted it. The brush made the letters and, this is the hard part, was every bit a part of the design process as was the layout. If you needed an image of a cheeseburger or something, roughly sketched an oval where it was supposed to be and you painted one.

Now I put objects onto a monitor screen, move them around, reshape them, subject them to various transformations and filters, and apply various effects. Some of these moves are incredibly severe it that what comes out bears little if any resemblance to what went in. If I need an image of a cheeseburger, most likely I'll snag one of the web or something. I will not create an image of a cheeseburger or anything else. I might create a panel or a ribbon or something like that but even then, I'm merely synthesizing it from other existing objects. I tend to like this way a bit better since now I can show a client something besides a crude sketch and with far less effort.

None of this is 'art' and all of it is just what you do to create a sign. It is not remarkable in the least and it most certainly is not a singularity for which a separate charge should be made.

Conversely, it there is layout or design or whatever you might choose to call it and either no product or a trivial product is created then there most certainly is a charge for that service. To quote Don Barzini from 'The Godfather': "After all, we are not communists."

 

[J Hill Designs]

yes but back when you chalk lined and stabiloed in your layout you were getting paid for it.

painter: 'it will cost you $400 to put that on your truck'
customer: 'ok have at it'
painter: /starts laying it out

 

[bulldozer]

we don't charge for art if it's a basic setup. when somebody brings us a logo that is a 4 x 6 jpeg (most of the time way way smaller) and say they want a 4' x 8' mdo, yea, we definitely charge by the hour for that.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Sport, when I need words put into my mouth I'm perfectly competent to do so all by myself. I never said nor did I ever imply that anything I did was better than what anyone else has done. Nor did I say or imply that no one is better or worse. Some are better than others. Some are a whole hell of a lot better.

Bob technically I did not put words in your mouth. I never accused you of saying anything. That being said, I do assume you were following the same train of thought you have in the past, that signs are a commodity. It appears as though you now seemed to have changed your opinion based on your statement that some sign makers "are a whole hell of a lot better". One could assume a better sign maker would create a better product, and since many sign makers create custom products, they would not be offering a commodity as you have stated in the past.

So, since I believe that there is a real measurable difference in well designed signs vs poorly designed signs, and if customers will seek out a sign shop because of the design work they produce, where as some might avoid a sign shop because of the design work they produce, a given sign shop's skill level when it comes to design has value. I cannot speak for every shop, but we have found it helpful to itemize design for many projects (but not all, not simple street signs) . If we replicate that sign using the same design, that design price wouldn't be included. This demonstrates how much that design was for that project, but also lets the customer know how much they can purchase a duplicates sign for. We charge separately for design if we are asked to release the design work on disk. Again, may not work for everyone but it works just fine for us.

 

[bob]

Bob technically I did not put words in your mouth. I never accused you of saying anything. That being said, I do assume you were following the same train of thought you have in the past, that signs are a commodity. It appears as though you now seemed to have changed your opinion based on your statement that some sign makers "are a whole hell of a lot better". One could assume a better sign maker would create a better product, and since many sign makers create custom products, they would not be offering a commodity as you have stated in the past...

Perhaps you're conflating the notion of 'uniqueness' with 'special' with 'special' somehow implying value.

In the best Aristotelian tradition, everything in the external reality is unique but precious little of it is special. Each and every sign regardless of how good or bad it might be is unique, 'custom' to use your lexicon. Signs are fungible in that one sign saying something is functionally interchangeable with any other sign saying the same thing. Assuming equivalent size and materials. Thus signs are a commodity.

Now then, some signs are inarguably better than others. Likes some sign makers are better than others. They all do the pretty much same thing in pretty much the same way, some are just better at it. Those that are better in general do not spend any more time or resources, often less since they are good at it, on the same job, they just produce a better result. Should the superior work command a better price? It might, but it is still functionally interchangeable with the same work done with less skill and grace.

None of this has much to do with the notion that one should charge additional fees for doing what they have to do to produce the job regardless of the quality of the result.

I did a 4x8 that was incredibly schlocky but was exactly what the client wanted. It involved a full background created by turning a photo into a pencil sketch and lots of ribbons and banners and crap. It took a bit of time to get it the way the client wanted it. I charged him the same amount I would have charged had the thing merely said "Land For Sale' in block letters. Some jobs take longer than others, some jobs are more lucrative than others. My pricing model accommodates these differences and I always make money. Sometimes more than at other times but I'm comfortable with it. I do not fret about an unbilled minute or hour or whatever it takes.

 

[Stanton]

Don't give away your talent.

Always bring art and a contract.


"Let me show my girlfriend."

- 'when can she be here... ?'


"Can I take it to show her ?"

-'no'




That simple.

Think of your art as a $100.ºº bill.



Would you hand off a C note and expect it to be returned ?




Point to the X___________

Sign the contract.

 

[Techman]

This thread has a common theme. It starts with how much to charge for a drawing.

Getting down to basics is the answer hidden within our marketing schemes? If we use the design charge as a marketing technique it will carry the sale to the next level. If we use it as a charge to make money and fail to follow though it is just a commodity. It seems to me the art fee should be part of getting a financial thus an emotional commitment out of the client.

Selling includes several steps. The interview, approach, agree and close.

Selling an expensive sign must follow all those steps. If a step is missed the sale collapses then we feel disappointment. In our marketing models some shops include a design fee or art charge or whatever it is called. Without a plan to lead the client into a commitment and the sale then that art charge can make or break the sale. If that art charge is used as a step in the process following a specific plan it leads to a high close rate.

So the answer is.. Art charges used as a technique to help make the sale. What are we selling a sign or a drawing? To me we are selling signs. That leads us to develop sales techniques and a script that would use an art charge as a step into the client making a commitment and write a check..

 

[Baz]

Bob ... You're just out to lunch with your stubbornness and narrow point of view.

With how i am being billed for EVERYTHING from the banks, utilities, government. You bet your behind i will charge for everything also ... If i can bill for every minute i am doing something in the shop hell i will!!! If i could invoice someone for me to go to the bathroom during the day i would also!

 

[FrankenSigns.biz]

In 1989 I was in graphic design, typesetting and desktop publishing. People simply could not do it themselves. I had clients who owned printing companies that couldn't put ink on paper without me. Back then people paid me and rarely argued a point. Things have changed since I started out.


Who wants to venture to guess what has changed?


Due to the fact that a PC comes with programs like MS Publisher doesn't mean people can design their way out of a wet paper bag. Many customers today have a computer at home and they are convinced they could do it themselves for free and therefore so should you.


Another misconception that customers love to feign is that there is little difference between a computer and some Star Trek fantasy that we can just get the computer to do that. No cost there.


Nowadays it's not easy to just blatantly charge for my time. Much of my product line "includes" some limited design time, and we do state as often as we can that additional design time is billable. On the rare occasion I do get a little more for my added efforts.


In the end our customers just don't want to pay for design. In fact, more often than not, they will challenge us on every penny. So my two cents: include your art charge in the price of your product and do your best to compensate yourself to some modest degree.

 

[Desert_Signs]

Due to the fact that a PC comes with programs like MS Publisher doesn't mean people can design their way out of a wet paper bag. Many customers today have a computer at home and they are convinced they could do it themselves for free and therefore so should you.

I had a guy bring me a 'print ready' file today that made me laugh.

It was for an 18x24 yard sign. It had SEVEN different fonts on it. The name of his company was mostly in Minster, but the 'C' at the beginning of his business name was cloister. It also had quill, scriptina, impact, pristina, and times new roman.

On top of that, he had a clip art hammer and paint brush. Of course, the file was a 2"x3" jpg. He wanted me to just print it.

I imagine I should have just recreated it for free though, because you can't charge for art.

 

[Rick]

Any available surface could be used to wipe me arse, that makes anything
that I get to my backside fungible, I prefer the 3 ply softness of Charmin...

 

[bob]

Bob ... You're just out to lunch with your stubbornness and narrow point of view.

With how i am being billed for EVERYTHING from the banks, utilities, government. You bet your behind i will charge for everything also ... If i can bill for every minute i am doing something in the shop hell i will!!! If i could invoice someone for me to go to the bathroom during the day i would also!

Narrow? I'm all ears if anyone here can come up with a cogent argument. Thus far all that has been presented has been are rationalizations, amusing tortured reasoning, and little else.

As far as your wanting to charge separately for each and every little thing including, apparently, taking a dump, I'll give you good odds that on comparable jobs I spend less time and make as much or more than you do all without any excruciating accounting clogging up the wheels of commerce. Or not, but I'm perfectly content with how I do things. Life is far too short with roses to be smelled and horses to be ridden to make things more complicated than they have to be.

 

[Desert_Signs]

Narrow? I'm all ears if anyone here can come up with a cogent argument. Thus far all that has been presented has been are rationalizations, amusing tortured reasoning, and little else.

As far as your wanting to charge separately for each and every little thing including, apparently, taking a dump, I'll give you good odds that on comparable jobs I spend less time and make as much or more than you do all without any excruciating accounting clogging up the wheels of commerce. Or not, but I'm perfectly content with how I do things. Life is far too short with roses to be smelled and horses to be ridden to make things more complicated than they have to be.

See the difference? I'd say we're all just happy as can be, letting you do things your own way.

You, on the other hand, seem to be very self-conscious and insecure in your methods. So much so that you try to convince yourself that an artist has no worth.

 

[francisco2525]

Get paid for your time!

It is silly to say that a designer shouldn't charge for their design; knowledge and skills takes a lot of time and money to acquire. Most other businesses cannot survive by giving out things for free, so why should we. Most people that say we shouldn't charge a design fee have already factored the design fee into their prices, and in most cases their prices are very high. Hell if I made 1000 dollars for selling 2 4 by 8 signs, and 10 18 by 24 signs, I would also do the design work for free because I would be making like 500 to 600 dollars in profit for just a couple of hours...we have to love the USA.

 

[FrankenSigns.biz]

We have a restaurant opening up next door. Guy comes in and says, "throw me a few logos together and let me look at them."

This is the state of graphic design these days.

I was reading the Steve Jobs biography and came across this:

Steve Jobs on working with Paul Rand to design the Next logo.

“I asked him if he would come up with a few options, and he said, ‘No, I will solve your problem for you and you will pay me. You don’t have to use the solution. If you want options go talk to other people.’”

 

[FrankenSigns.biz]

I had a guy bring me a 'print ready' file today that made me laugh.

It was for an 18x24 yard sign. It had SEVEN different fonts on it. The name of his company was mostly in Minster, but the 'C' at the beginning of his business name was cloister. It also had quill, scriptina, impact, pristina, and times new roman.

On top of that, he had a clip art hammer and paint brush. Of course, the file was a 2"x3" jpg. He wanted me to just print it.

I imagine I should have just recreated it for free though, because you can't charge for art.

I didn't say you can't charge for art, I said it's hard to. Obviously your situation in recreating an existing sign the guy likes is a unique opportunity to get a little for design. I imagine your price was not perceived as "too high" or your customer would have left in pursuit of another quote.