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Backlit Vinyl Bubbling After 3 Years

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AGinVT

New Member
Hi Everyone,

I came into work this morning to an email with this photo showing the entire surface of a sign we produced and installed 3 years ago bubbling up. This was Orajet 3850 Translucent (printed on HP latex) with a 3M8520 overlaminate, mounted to Lexan in a standard SignComp kit.

I am asking if they recently had any power washing done with pre-treat chemicals recently, but just feeling around in the dark. Any ideas?
 

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weyandsign

New Member
I think because of the black color and too much liquid used when applying the vinyl. That narrow of a face, you probably should have applied the vinyl dry. Are the letters supposed to be white and yellowed that bad in 3 years? Did you use UV treated lexan?
 
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AGinVT

New Member
weyandsign said:
I think because of the black color and too much liquid used when applying the vinyl. That narrow of a face, you probably should have applied the vinyl dry. Are the letters supposed to be white and yellowed that bad in 3 years? Did you use UV treated lexan?
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The face is Lexan and has full vinyl coverage with UV laminate (3M8520). The "yellowing" is their branded color. The colors have not changed.
I have never heard of "too much liquid" when doing a wet application. I assumed whatever is needed to keep the vinyl from pre-sticking, as long as all the liquid is pushed out. Remember this issue has only come up after 3 years of being out in the elements.
 
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damonCA21

New Member
Looks like maybe heat damage? Has it been particularly hot where it was fitted? Very strange though as never seen anything like that unless it has been cleaned recently and its a chemical reaction
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Talk about orange peel...... looks like alligator skin.

I use alotta the same vinyl and never saw that. Maybe a bubble here and there that might've built up over some time, but never that bad. And that all basically showed up overnight ??
 
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AGinVT

New Member
damonCA21 said:
Looks like maybe heat damage? Has it been particularly hot where it was fitted? Very strange though as never seen anything like that unless it has been cleaned recently and its a chemical reaction
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It is located in Vermont, so nothing too extreme. The timing is the most confusing part of the whole thing. It was installed in July 2020, so even if we didn't push all the water out on the application I would think any issues would have shown itself almost immediately. The shear number of bubbles is also puzzling. A few here or there that need to be popped after sun exposure is not out of the norm, but this thing has the chicken pox.
 
Johnny Best

Johnny Best

Active Member
Lexan should have been "outgassed" for about a week or so before applying full coverage of vinyl. Has a pretty cool finish to it now.
 
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DChorbowski

Pixel Pusher
Lexan can absorb and retain moisture, and then when it heats up it has nowhere to go due to the vinyl. Ive never seen this happen after years, but I have seen it happen within hours of application. Is there any chance you can check the inside of the can and see if theres moisture in there? Have you been getting abnormal amount of rain? Im curious what that lexan looks like under the vinyl.
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
What czar said, see if the box is full of water. You guys have had some serious rain and heat, is it possible moisture trapped in the box got absorbed by the lexan
 
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AGinVT

New Member
czarhelix said:
Lexan can absorb and retain moisture, and then when it heats up it has nowhere to go due to the vinyl. Ive never seen this happen after years, but I have seen it happen within hours of application. Is there any chance you can check the inside of the can and see if theres moisture in there? Have you been getting abnormal amount of rain? Im curious what that lexan looks like under the vinyl.
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We have had a lot of rain and flooding in our area. Very unusual for us in Vermont. We have to re-face the graphic anyway, so we'll be taking a look inside. The box does have weep holes, but I know they get clogged up sometimes. Thank you for the insight.
 
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AGinVT

New Member
Billct2 said:
What czar said, see if the box is full of water. You guys have had some serious rain and heat, is it possible moisture trapped in the box got absorbed by the lexan
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That is definitely possible. We'll open it up and take a look. Thank you.
 
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a77

New Member
I have seen this locally, never knew what it was. I have asked around a bit, noone could give me an answer.
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gnubler

gnubler

Active Member
AGinVT said:
We have had a lot of rain and flooding in our area. Very unusual for us in Vermont. We have to re-face the graphic anyway, so we'll be taking a look inside. The box does have weep holes, but I know they get clogged up sometimes. Thank you for the insight.
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How are you approaching this, business-wise? Billing the customer for materials & labor for a reface? Do you warranty vinyl sign faces? Wonder if it'll happen again with certain weather conditions.
 
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AGinVT

New Member
gnubler said:
How are you approaching this, business-wise? Billing the customer for materials & labor for a reface? Do you warranty vinyl sign faces? Wonder if it'll happen again with certain weather conditions.
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Good question. This one is tricky. We typically stand behind our work well beyond our standard warranty period, but this one is pretty extreme. If it is a peeling vehicle decal it is easy enough to eat the cost to keep a customer happy and build trust, but this is definitely a more significant expense between the materials, labor and lift. I am hoping the vinyl will come off and we can reuse the Lexan, but I won't hold my breath. In my experience backlit is pretty stubborn.

The max we will charge is our bottom line expenses considering the severity of the damage.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Three years is well beyond any warranty needed. I never saw that before and now to see another one...... and both from canada........................ only means one thing. Y'all are weird.
 
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a77

New Member
AGinVT said:
Thank you for posting the photo. Glad to know we're not alone. Whereabout in Canada are you? Wondering if it is climate related. Big temperature swings etc.
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Hi AGinVT, Vancouver, BC. Wet climate sure... but I have done a fair amount of translucent on polycarb and acrylic, never seen it on my signs. But I have read the threads on signs101 about "outgassing" (both for sheets and for inks in vinyls) and it can start a very interesting discussion. There's an old guy on a horse who will tell you repeatedly it's a myth... vinyl is permeable... etc... etc..

I saw this particular sign when going out to dinner one night and have seen it at least 2 more times. Always trying to learn, I shared the photo with my signshop friends, and one supplier. Noone knew what to make of it.

I don't know if we have ever let our poylcarbonate or acrylic sheets "air out", but we do always clean with isopropynol before applying vinyl. Try to use rapidtac for application, but often use a home-made solution.
 
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AGinVT

New Member
Same here a77. We always prep with isopropyl and use either rapidtac or a drop of Dawn mixed well in a spray bottle of water, depending on temperatures.

We have produced more backlit Lexan graphics than I can count and this is a first for me. Hopefully a first and a last. Thank you for taking the time discuss and post the photo.
 
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