built a computer! Thoughts and changes possible.

[oc63rag]

Great timing on this thread. We needed another computer to do design work from home. We are almost all Mac but we use a PC to drive our Seiko so we've integrated the PC into the workflow. A friend of mine builds computers for gaming and he was able to come up with a great combination of speed and reliability at a reasonable cost.

This is what is has:
Win XP Pro 64
Intel Dual Core 3.2 ghz processor
4 gb ram
Asus P5WD2 motherboard
Radeon X800 video card
He went on for a while on the other specs but all I know is it's fast and seems stable.
I'm not a big fan of Windows but this is a nice machine.

 

[Fine Line Darrel]

oc63rag,
A friend of mine just had a new computer build for him, by a computer guy who builds for gaming......bad mistake. His new one is slower than his old one! Talking to tech guys and they say "never the two shall meet" the requirements for a gaming computer vs the requirements for a graphics computer...totally different game (pardon the pun) So not wanting to make the same mistake....I'm now asking what to build?? In particular I'm told the video cards are very different, and will make a big difference in the speed of the machine. Just want to get this right the first time....so any help is greatly appreciated.

Fine Line Darrel

 

[oc63rag]

oc63rag,
A friend of mine just had a new computer build for him, by a computer guy who builds for gaming......bad mistake. His new one is slower than his old one! Talking to tech guys and they say "never the two shall meet" the requirements for a gaming computer vs the requirements for a graphics computer...totally different game (pardon the pun) So not wanting to make the same mistake....I'm now asking what to build?? In particular I'm told the video cards are very different, and will make a big difference in the speed of the machine. Just want to get this right the first time....so any help is greatly appreciated.

Fine Line Darrel

That's a good point. I told him I needed it for designing with Photoshop and Illustrator and he built it with that in mind. So far, it works great.
I'm not a techie enough to say it would run faster with this component or that one. I'm sure someone here can give you some basic specs to build around.

 

[ChiknNutz]

Yep, good timing for me as well. I've built a few over the years, but always like to see what others are doing too. I'm in the need of another station, so this is helpful.

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

OC - You are essentially running a twin to mine EXCEPT we are running XP Pro 32-bit (what sign/printing software are you running on 64?), and that our video is using the later (newer, but overkill) chipset. You never mentioned the drive setup, but unless you were spending in the G's, you are most likely running SATA.

Mr. Fine Line :Canada 2 - I looked at Dell, and even did a shopping list (below) from Newegg. I configured a setup using SAS (the latest SCSI), and DDR3 memory. Get ready for some sticker shock. From Dell the system just breaks $7k (with support, 24-hr on-site warranty, and software), and from Newegg about $4500 (no service warranty, no OS).

An alternative to SAS, but faster than SATA, is u320. Remember both are SCSI. u320 has been out for about 5 years and is still mainstream for the large corps. Nevertheless, it is yesterday's product and considering that a properly built SCSI system can run years (not an exaggeration) without having to look for upgrades, is it really advisable to go that route? Yet, the cost difference between the two is tremendous and u320 still kicks SATA's butt, and has much fewer drive failures. Dunno : For you and others that want to use a faster drive array and not spend the money on SAS, just substitute the Adaptec SAS controller card with the Adaptec 39320-R and the drives to the same size and speed but u320.

I can tell you that about 15 years ago I started with what the called "Ultra 3" with a p166 (the fastest and newest at the time). 5 years after that I went to u160 and an Athlon (which was quickly replaced when the P4 1.8 became available). 4 years ago I upgraded to a u320 and added the Dual-core last year.



SILVERSTONE SST-TJ07-BW Black 4.0mm ~ 8.0mm uni-body aluminum outer frame, 2.0mm aluminum body ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail
Model #: SST-TJ07-BW
Item #: N82E16811163067

Best case out there! Has a completely separate compartment for the drives

$329.99 $329.99


ASUS P5K3 DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #: P5K3 DELUXE/WIFI-AP
Item #: N82E16813131181

Asus is MY preference, but not gospel. I have tried others for different workstations and have not liked their performance

$246.99 $246.99

SAPPHIRE 100176L Radeon X1950PRO 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: 100176L
Item #: N82E16814102061

This card is overkill unless you are into gaming, or video editing. It is a good balance of memory, core speed, and pipelines for the cost

$136.99 $136.99

Adaptec 2185800-R PCI-E x8 SATA / SAS RAID 44805SAS SGL/128 - Retail
Model #: 2185800-R
Item #: N82E16816103053

I have five drives installed now. A person could use fewer but having the extra drive capacity makes adding drive a cinch


$704.99 $704.99


SILVERSTONE ST1000 ATX12V / EPS12V 1000W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: ST1000
Item #: N82E16817256020

It is all about amperage draw. A person could get by with smaller IF they properly balanced the loads, and never planned to add more drives.

$279.99 -$30.00 Instant $249.99


Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6850 - Retail
Model #: BX80557E6850
Item #: N82E16819115028

Not the latest and greatest but more than sufficient at a reasonable cost

$312.99 $312.99


CORSAIR 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN3X2048-1066C7 - Retail
Model #: TWIN3X2048-1066C7
Item #: N82E16820145181

This brand is the difference between a Nike and Adidas, but so far the cheapest on Newegg to offer the DDR3

$359.00 ea. $718.00

Fujitsu MAX3073RC 74GB 15,000 RPM Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) Hard Drive - Retail
Model #: MAX3073RC
Item #: N82E16822116016

These would the smaller drives of the four. One would be for OS, and the other for Windows swap file and Photoshop scratchdisk - NOT set up in RAID


$259.99 ea. $519.98


Fujitsu MAX3147RC 147GB 15,000 RPM Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) Hard Drive - Retail
Model #: MAX3147RC
Item #: N82E16822116017

These two larger drives would be setup as a RAID 0 (do a search for RAID definitions to get a better understanding) and would give a total of 294 GB and appear on the screen as one drive


$499.99 ea. $999.98

Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3400620AS 400GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: ST3400620AS
Item #: N82E16822148138

Just a big drive for backup

$99.99 $99.99



Sony NEC Optiarc 18X DVD±R DVD Burner with 12X DVD-RAM Write Black SATA Model AD-7170S-0B - OEM
Model #: AD-7170S-0B
Item #: N82E16827152079

$33.99 ea. $67.98

ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler - Retail
Model #: ACFZ7-PRO
Item #: N82E16835186134

Computers can overheat just like cars. The factory CPU coolers do not compare with the aftermarket coolers

$34.99 $34.99

 

[Fine Line Darrel]

Well PhD,
You are the "Techno Geek" of computer geeks.....wow! I have no idea what you have down but I am impressed and VERY THANKFUL. 7K$ that is a lot of cake....but these jobs are not going to get any smaller or easier. Just an estimate....how long would we get use from a system like that before we would need to upgrade again? 1,2,5 years....any idea. Thanks again for all of your help.

Fine Line Darrel

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

You are the "Techno Geek" of computer geeks

No I am not - I just know this area....an area that many would once avoid due to the fear of cost. SCSI is a four letter word to most people that work on home PC's - but is actually easier.

My machine ran for 5 years before IDE were able to catch up to its speed. On the other hand, there is a newer design of hard drive on the horizon that may very well exceed both IDE and SCSI . These will eliminate moving parts and function similar to flash/jump drives. I will wait for them to become reliable (current flash drives are known for losing information) before I make that leap, and it still may be a coupe of years before they even think about offering the to the mainstream.

There is a conglomeration of reasons as to why SCSI is better and faster. SCSI controller cards have their own processor, so now information transfer does not load up the CPU. It can also handle multiple data requests simultaneously (which is why they are found in commercial servers), whereas IDE can only handle one request at a time - thus the "perpetual hour glass". The advantages of SCSI include more than speed. Another huge advantage is reliability. Because SCSI is designed for commercial, the drives are rated and carry warranty for 5 years, not 3 or 1 that most IDE drives offer. This is because SCSI drives are intended to run full speed 24/7. In 15 years I have only had one SCSI failure, as compared to many IDE failures.

Many of the reliability problems are due to IDE/SATA drives pushing the speed envelope. They (manufacturers) took a design that was meant to run 5400 rpm and tried to double it, which created heat related failures. It is not that the engineering is not available, it is the mere fact that to build a SATA drive like a SCSI drive they would cost the same, but lack the ability of multiple data requests, etc.

I love my SCSI, as I am sure the CDiesel does his. I do not think that Chris will ever go back to IDE, and my personal machine will never be. Everybody that deals with modern graphics software should do some research about SCSI. We often spend big money on software and other equipment, but then try and run it all with $1000 PC.

 

[Fine Line Darrel]

Dear PhD,
"techno geek" totally meant as a huge compliment....obvious you have a ton of experience with the inner workings of the computer. May I bore you with a couple more questions? if so.
1. If someone is doing wraps, do we need the 7K computer? or could we build a "suitable" system for say half?
2. Would you recommed we buy another custom Dell or seek out someone like yourself to custom build us one?
3. Would you consider building us and I'm sure many others a system....or are you even interested in that?
Thanks again for all of your help.

Fine Line Darrel

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

"techno geek" totally meant as a huge compliment

That is understood, and the thought is appreciated, but very incorrect. The reason I know and understand SCSi is due to the fact that when I first started with SCSI the majority of techs had no understanding of SCSI.. A couple of old guys at Adaptec understood my dilemma and provided me with enough support and knowledge that enabled me to not rely on a PC tech for my machine - nothing more, but "Thank You" for the thought.

Do you need a high end commercial machine? Nope. The conversation is about available solutions, not costs (which keep many away). If you were to amortize a commercial machine over 5 years, you may find that it really cost no less. I would never suggest that anybody purchase/build a SCSI machine without doing some research (to see if the benefits are worth it to them) and talking to others that have them in use. Just FYI, many of the large design agencies that run Macs, also run SCSI drive arrays. In truth, as long as machine has the minimum requirements to run a particular application, then that is all that is required. The difference is in the time to get things done.

Would I build a machine for someone? Not unless they lived real close and did not want 24/7 on-site service. I have a few close friends nearby that I help with simple stuff, but over the years their wives have paid attention and do most on their own - unless they get really jammed up (and they don't).

Dell is not the only solution provider, but they do offer a good warranty for businesses. If memory serves correct, that is the way iSign went. CDiesel on the other hand went with an independent. The only thing I will say is that you must know that an independent will be reliable, and even around. PC people come and go like vinyl jockeys.

Hey Chris - If you don't mind saying, how much did you machine set you back?

 

[ChiknNutz]

Found this locally, used for $500. This is obviously a server, but are the specs pretty fair for the $$$? Seems like it, but then again used computer stuff is a toss-up. If someone that knows something about this, what else would I want here? Seems like I'd want a coupla larger HDs, right? I see a lot of servers that use the 36GB SCSI drives...why is that? If it's a server, why don't you want a lot of storage capacity? Agreed, I don't know much about servers and real networking.

Dell PowerEdge 1600SC Server:

2 - Intel Xeon 2.0 GHz (Processors)
1 GB RAM (Memory)
2 - 36 GB @ 10,000 RPM (Disk Drives)
2 - 1 GHz Network Adapters
CD ROM and Floppy drives
Standard keyboard

Setup with clean Microsoft Windows 2003 Server operating system installed

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

If the machine is u320 with a RAID controller, that is a good price for that machine, and at 10k rpm it most likely is either u160 or u320, but not necessarily RAID.

You are right about a need for storage, but remember that is the key word. Two 36GB drive are more than sufficient for the "running" of a machine. One for the OS, and the other for the swapfile. For storage you, or anybody, would add two 147's, or possibly even 74's, as a RAID. Any large standard SATA will work for archiving. You would keep or transfer what you are working on to the RAID, and archive it when you are done.

Here is how I would configure that machine:

36 GB OS
36 GB Swap
147GB + 147GB RAID = 294 GB
500GB SATA 7200 rpm for daily backup
500GB SATA 7200 rpm for archiving
500 GB External Firewire 7200 rpm Fire insurance drive


My OS drive is a 36GB and only utilizes 50% of the storage because there are no data files on it.

Again, SCSI is an expensive proposition to start. Once the initial is expense is handled, most never look back, and it is not nearly as costly as everybody would assume.

 

[cdiesel]

As pro signs said, I did go with an independent builder (Terry from http://www.mcgelec.com/) He's local to me, and was introduced to us by one of our good customers who we mentioned some networking problems to. Before Terry came along, we had two different "network specialist" companies out to try to hook up our internet service and LAN. After almost 24 total hours of work, neither were successful. Terry had us up and running within 10 minutes, no joke. Before he built my SAS machine, he built the one that gets circles run around it. He had never built a graphics editing machine before, but he did some research and built what he thought was best. He originally suggested SAS on the 1st machine, but the $$$ was too much so we opted to run raid 0 with SATA drives. It's okay, but not FAST.

One thing about Terry.. if we have an issue, it's never taken him more than six hours to be at our shop. He offers a 3 year complete warranty on the whole system, and he's got lots of loaner/replacement parts in case something goes wrong.

The old machine cost around $1900 I think. The new SAS machine was just shy of $6k. There are some huge differences tho. The 1st machine runs onboard video, and HDD controller. The new machine run two nice 19" monitors (included in the $6k) and as mentioned before, SAS. The SAS setup cost $2200 total for the controller and the six drives. The video card in this machine was also $750. Some may say that this is not necessary for graphics editing, and is more suited for gaming/3d rendering. My train of thought was this: Running two monitors, there's a lot of pixels to look after. Getting that info away from the CPU and main RAM, and putting it onto a kick ass card made a lot of sense to me. One weak link can really slow things down.

On a side note, when we built this new machine, the SCSI card was only available with a 512mb chip for the cache. They told us they would have a 1G chip out soon. I need to call and find out if it's released yet!

And to answer Darrel's question, you don't NEED a $7k (or $6k) machine to do standard wraps. We have done lots of designs on our dell (P4 3.4Ghz w/4GB ram, SATA cost $1500), the 1st computer Terry built, and even our dell laptops (2Ghz, 2GB RAM cost $1200). Keeping your file sizes manageble (using place for vector objects instead of rasterizing them is a HUGE help, and run 72dpi @ full size) you'll be just fine with a lesser machine. Sure, it'll take a few minutes to open & save large files, and you won't want to have 10 other apps running the background, but you can do it. On the other hand, just last week I designed a wrap for a 31' trailer. The file size for each side was just under 3GB. I wouldn't want to try this on any other machine!

 

[cdiesel]

Chris--for $500 I think I'd jump on that server. You'll need a couple more drives for storage like pro signs said, but still not a bad deal.

 

[ChiknNutz]

How do you go about using one of the drives as a SWAP drive? I understand the concept, but unsure of the execution.

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

The new SAS machine was just shy of $6k

No matter how you look at it, $6 is a good price. 15 years ago, out of frustration, my first SCSI machine cost $5k. Putting the dollar in perspective...that was a lot of dough. The way I see it that $6k for a super-powered workhorse machine, that will be in use for quite a few years, is as good of an investment as buying all of the other crazy equipment. - the point being investment.

Diesel, I am glad to see that you have a good tech around. Finding a good tech is more like a crap-shoot.

GX (too many named Chris ) - My Computer >> Properties >> Advanced >> Performance >> Advanced >> Virtual Memory. If you have more than one drive, point the swap file AWAY from the drive with the OS, set it to the largest available, AND turn off the Swap file on the OS drive. Just like you would setting up a scratchdisk in Photoshop.

 

[cdiesel]

$6k is a lot of money for most people to spend on a PC. It's funny tho, cause damn near everything we do is done by computer. If you're anything like me, I get super frustrated & stressed out waiting for things. When I was working on the 3GB sides of the trailer, I was ripping/printing the front and rear in the background, had IE playing sirius, outlook was open, and peachtree running and the only commands that weren't instant were open/saves. I don't care how fast your system/drives are, it's gonna take a minute to read/write 3GB.

I'll spend $6k to keep my sanity any day!

Depending on the company size/setup, you might only need one workhorse. Our other machines work great for most of what we do, but for larger stuff, I really feel it's worth it to spend the $$$. At the rate we're going, we'll probably end up building another machine like mine later this year. It's funny--if I have to run an errand or something, I always come back to someone else working on my machine.

 

[bullcrew]

Got the "disc read error" msg tonight. Not real happy, I had it up an running (seemed to lag a little) and working fine all drivers installed and loaded the apps ie ps/flexi etc... Got both monitors calibrated.
Shut it down and restarted it and nothing, no beep from tower or lights or monitors. I turned the power off and reset the cmos/? (little switch on back of abit ip35 pro mobo) and turned it back on, now it gives me the disc read error msg and press ctrl alt delete to restart.
Did I mention I still hate computers, its a love hate thing.
Im going back to crayons and wax paper.
Any ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

I always come back to someone else working on my machine.

That is why I get grumpy when I find someone at my desk! "Move over, get out of my, get your own!! !LOL!

It is definitely a hunk of change, but, something can only be as strong as its weakest link. The computer is the most neglected piece of hardware in any small business. $6k is a small price to pay for sanity.

Did I mention I still hate computers, its a love hate thing.
Im going back to crayons and wax paper.
Any ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell yeah! I know exactly what you mean. Did you figure out if it is a hardware or configuration issue? On this (mine) last build, I read that ASUS had a slew of issues from overheating to the IDE access. The homework (and list) paid off and was up and running in the amount of time to assemble.

Are there any issues with your setup? If you are not sure, it may be a good idea check forums to see if there are.

 

[jasonx]

Hey guys,

I got a related question to this thread. Sorry if it seems like I am hijacking it.

Will the Adaptec 44300 SAS SCSI Controller Kit suffice? It's only a 4 channel. If you wanted to run SATA drives do they have to be run off the SAS SCSI Controller or are they run off the motherboards SATA ports? The SATA drives will only be used as mentioned in this thread for archiving and backup of files.

So configuration would be like
36GB OS
36GB Scratch swap space
72 + 72GB for working space as RAID 0

Then a SATA for backup etc.

Another question with your applications where are they installed? On the 36GB OS drive or on the 72GB+72GB raid 0 setup?

Thanks
Jason

 

[bullcrew]

It rocks like a beast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gotta love the abit ip35 pro and some 411 from OC'rs via oc3d and uabit.com. Man I set the latency values for the memory and re flashed the board Bios as well as some tweak settings and I can almost smell the info smoking its going so fast.

Hail Overclockers man, you dont have to OC to get the maximum settings reliably from them.