Buying new computer - Windows 10 or Windows 7?

[WildWestDesigns]

The OP is going to eventually need to learn 10,

Depends on the software needed. Some are stuck on the ecosystem due to the software that is needed, others are not. Should always constantly evaluate what is needed and not just stick on the status quo just because it's the status quo.

The OP may or may not have that ability, but it all depends.

besides you can't buy a new Win 10 machine easily.

I think you meant Win 7 can't be bought new easily. However, workstation computers still have the ability to get/use Win 7 and Win 8.1 (I actually liked this OS, but on my Cintiq tablet, certainly liked it more then XP). Now, they do cost quite a bit, but they can still be had easily.

A lot of creative ways (and still be legal) around the situation.

 

[S11930]

I think you missed the first line. Buying a computer from AMAZON. They are not in the computer business. They have no clue as to what you are doing with it. Get all your information RAM, HARD DISK etc. Go to Dell that's what they do. You are not investing in the past, present but in the future. Yes, you can get windows 95 or XP but then you complain when you can't get support from Flexi or Gerber because It's their fault. All programs are going towards tomorrow. You need to think of a new computer as an investment not an expense.

 

[player]

What are you talking about. I have the computer in my shop that runs my plotter, and the computer that drives my cnc, and they both are xp machines. They are not on the internet, and run fine, and I have 0% chance of upgrading them.

What words did I type you do not understand?

 

[kcollinsdesign]

For the most part, it will be to your advantage to stay current with technology. Hardware evolves a little slower than software, but by now you should be at least using a flash drive and running Windows 10. Many people find Apple computers more intuitive and easier to use, and I recommend them. But staying on top is important, especially with automated updates and subscription based SAS. Essentially, in exchange for a monthly subscription fee, you get state-of-the-art software fully optimized for your system with minimum effort on your part. I pay $120.00/mo. or so for Adobe, CADTools, Extensis, DropBox, Quickbooks, Linotype and a few others that don't come to mind. For me these are mandatory expenses, and I don't mind at all paying for them (takes me about 2 hours to cover that expense).

My best advice is to buy the latest technology, but don't get suckered in to thinking that "more is better". Research the system requirements for the software you will be using, and purchase in the "mid-range". For most of us in the sign business that means an Intel Core i5 (or equiv.), probably 16GB RAM, and at least a 256GB solid state drive. This will keep you going for the next three years for under $2K so your total monthly out put for computer and software will be around $200.00/mo.

There are exceptions, of course. Those people that need super high-speed computers already know who they are. Rendering high resolution bit-maps, editing HD video, and running fat relational databases will require more power. Crysus players need not apply. But the average sign guy will get by fine on a mid-range system, with plenty of headroom when needed without paying through the nose.

 

[AF]

I prefer Windows 7. There is a slim chance of getting a virus that may steal your data. The problem with Windows 10 is that MS basically built viruses into it that steal your data the moment you turn it in for the first time. And you can’t fully disable the data gathering which eats up performance even if not on the network.

I would suggest getting a machine with a custom (I.e. stripped down) Windows 7 install if you can.

For reference, I have all versions of Windows running on equipment of various vintage. Win 7 was the the best edition.

For Windows 10 to be classified as a business O.S. they would have to completely remove Metro, disable all data stealing telemetry, offer a real start menu, stop rolling releases, optimize their code and get rid off all the other Millenial time wasting bloatware (Cortana, socialist media integration, store etc)

 

[kcollinsdesign]

For what it's worth, I'm running my plotter with a 1999 "Blueberry" iBook G3 clamshell. Works great! And I am using an old PC running WIN 7 to serve hi-res audio to my hi-fi (admittedly, I am controlling it with my iPhone or iPad, but the old Dell is doing the heavy lifting). I still have a closet full of old computers (I can't bring myself to throw them away). You really can't give them away, because you will probably be doing the recipient a dis-service (or you will end up being their au-gratis tech support guru).

 

[Jean Shimp]

Thanks everybody for your replies. But I am still undecided as it seems there is a fairly even split on the pros and cons of Windows 10. It makes good sense to keep up with technology and really at some point we are forced to upgrade on certain programs anyway. I don't mind updating and dealing with a new learning curve if in fact there is good benefits gained by it. However, it seems we are at the point where we have no choice in what the big operating systems are throwing at us. I don't want forced updates. I don't want all those silly "apps" either. I don't want someone lurking about in my computer. Yes, I know I'm asking too much but Windows 7 is still my preference. Dell stopped selling Win 7 machines this month. HP has a limited number available. I'm not computer savvy enough to buy a custom build from a local tech person; will they be around if I need support.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

But staying on top is important, especially with automated updates and subscription based SAS.

This is true. I don't like it, and in a production environment it is no bueno

Essentially, in exchange for a monthly subscription fee, you get state-of-the-art software fully optimized for your system with minimum effort on your part.

Not exactly true. It's optimized for newer hardware, not necessarily for your system. Your system may become outdated and you have to update your hardware (maybe sooner then you want and/or can afford to) in order to use the latest and greatest. Otherwise, you keep the previous version installed on your system (and still paying your monthly fee for the latest and greatest without actually getting benefit of it) until your hardware is on parity with your software.

For me these are mandatory expenses, and I don't mind at all paying for them (takes me about 2 hours to cover that expense).

For me, personally, boiling it down to just how long it takes to cover the monthly fee is a little over simplification of the ramification of using SaaS and the like.

It makes good sense to keep up with technology and really at some point we are forced to upgrade on certain programs anyway.

If you are forced to upgrade on certain programs anyway. There still maybe Win 7 support for the latest versions of the programs you are updating, however, with needing a new computer, it's a hard sell to stay with Win 7.

Now, of course, it is possible to VM Win 7 on a newer computer to keep the legacy software while still be current and not take up as much foot traffic with multiple computers. Since the VM and the production software would be separate, updates on Win 10 would have less of an effect on the production software.

That brings its own requirements, however.

I don't mind updating and dealing with a new learning curve if in fact there is good benefits gained by it.

It's honestly a toss up as to the good benefits. Depends on who you "talk" to.

However, it seems we are at the point where we have no choice in what the big operating systems are throwing at us.

I'm so glad that I no longer have to deal with Windows (or even have consider going to OSX).

I don't want forced updates.

Updates in a production environment are a double edge sword. The recent plethora of issues going on with this past months update are proof of that (and I'm more sympathetic to MS then Apple when it comes to update woes and Apple has had their share of them, even as recent as the stable release of High Sierra when it first came out).

However, I firmly believe that production computers should not be connected to the WAN. Now that's getting hard to do with SaaS programs, but production rigs just shouldn't be connected to the WAN.

I don't want someone lurking about in my computer. Yes, I know I'm asking too much but Windows 7 is still my preference.

I think it's only gotten worse. Win 7 (if it's on it's current updates for sure) was starting to get some of the telemetry that you see in Win 10.

I'm not computer savvy enough to buy a custom build from a local tech person; will they be around if I need support.

Also have to keep in mind that companies that make individual components may not deal with Win 7 support on their latest and greatest hardware as well. So while the machine may be new, it may not be truly the latest and greatest hardware.

 

[AF]

I have seen “bleeding edge” hardware choke and stall running Windows 10 due to the phone-home nature of it. It is random and very difficult to debug because it is essentially not a bug.

My view is that Win 10 is not a technological advancement from the user perspective since any notable changes over Win 7 (and Win 8 which is the most loathesome OS ever) are for the benefit of Micro$oft.

 

[bulldozer]

there is no reason at all to get windows 7. at all.

windows 10 is great. wayyyy better than 8. windows 8 is the windows ME of today.

backward compatibility for older programs.

turn off auto-updates.

we converted our entire shop (20 computers) to windows 10 from 7 and XP. Zero issues

pre-built computers (like dell, hp, etc.) are a bit of a hassle most of the time and come with so many issues.

i think that covers almost everything.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

windows 10 is great. wayyyy better than 8. windows 8 is the windows ME of today.

In all honesty, I prefer Win 8.1 to Win 10 on my dad's computer.

backward compatibility for older programs.

Yes and no. The rolling release nature of Win 10 means means that it can change at the drop of a hat.

Despite the bloat of Windows with a decent support of legacy software, it isn't full proof.

turn off auto-updates.

One cannot turn off auto updates natively within Windows on the versions that most on here would be able to legally get a license to. Can defer updates, but not totally stop. Now there may be 3rd party options to do this, but that comes with it's own concerns as well. Much like the 3rd party solutions to keep older Windows upgrading to Win 10.

There used to be work arounds to this via the registry and the like for Win 10, but even those holes have been plugged on recent versions.

Bare in mind too, that each major version of Windows (you know the big twice year updates) are only supported 18 months from when they were releases (not when you get them, but when they were released). Past that time, that version of Win 10 is EOL.

we converted our entire shop (20 computers) to windows 10 from 7 and XP. Zero issues

And yet my dad's upgrading of 1 computer to Win 10 has been fraught with issues since the beginning. It's a crap shoot and to a certain point, I can understand given all the hardware/software combinations out there.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

My view is that Win 10 is not a technological advancement from the user perspective since any notable changes over Win 7 (and Win 8 which is the most loathesome OS ever) are for the benefit of Micro$oft.

In a lot of ways, that's the case with SaaS programs as well.

Although, I have a much harder time when it affects the OS of a computer versus a program. An OS is just way to connected within the system versus a program (at least at this time).

Brave new world at there, at least it better be.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

It is fine to use legacy operating systems if they efficiently run your production equipment. I do it. I keep those computers off the WAN, and in some cases don't even use a LAN ("sneaker"net with flash drives for my plotter computer). But for general computing, and CAD I find the WAN indispensable, and running newer software and operating systems works out better. I get art files from all over the world, and most of it requires an updated version of software to even open the files, let alone work on them. I use Adobe Creative Suite, and have a much more streamlined and fast work flow if I stay up to date (let alone leveraging new features). I also use the cloud to store working files, and can generally access anything I need from any computer anywhere. I can send clients files wherever I am at from my phone, and open files at any of my job sites and workspaces. I use Quickbooks Online, and have access to estimating and invoicing from any machine hooked up to the internet. I still use on-site backup, but everything is also stored in the cloud, which is quite a bit more secure than a mechanical drive sitting on my shelf (I once had a backup drive go south when trying to restore the contents of a failed drive in my main PC, and lost three months of data. At one time I had a triple redundant back-up, with both on-site and off-site drives that I constantly rotated and updated. Things are much simpler now and operate in the background). I don't obsess about having my data "stolen", and I don't really care if MS or Apple collect metadata about me and my usage habits. From my standpoint, modern technology allows me to spend less time staring at a monitor, and more time out in the community and enjoying life.

 

[aGrainofSalt]

That's like asking Mac or PC, Xbox or Playstation, Coke or Pepsi? Everyone has an opinion. For what it is worth, I intentionally stay at least 1 step behind the current. We are on windows 7, professionally and personally. I will not upgrade to 10 until it is crammed down my throat. I run a 10 year old PC that handles anything I've thrown at it. Home built, Quad core I5, Solid state drive 1tb and HDD 1tb, 16GB ram, can render a 2 minute video from AE in about 10 minutes. AI opens in 12 seconds flat, ready to run. Photoshop in 5. My work PC is just a newer DELL built version with I7 and no SSD. This runs Adobe CC, Onyx, and my plotter, as well as my day to day activities like email.

Let the early adopters find the bugs, use what you know is going to work.

 

[bulldozer]

In all honesty, I prefer Win 8.1 to Win 10 on my dad's computer.



Yes and no. The rolling release nature of Win 10 means means that it can change at the drop of a hat.

Despite the bloat of Windows with a decent support of legacy software, it isn't full proof.




One cannot turn off auto updates natively within Windows on the versions that most on here would be able to legally get a license to. Can defer updates, but not totally stop. Now there may be 3rd party options to do this, but that comes with it's own concerns as well. Much like the 3rd party solutions to keep older Windows upgrading to Win 10.

There used to be work arounds to this via the registry and the like for Win 10, but even those holes have been plugged on recent versions.

Bare in mind too, that each major version of Windows (you know the big twice year updates) are only supported 18 months from when they were releases (not when you get them, but when they were released). Past that time, that version of Win 10 is EOL.




And yet my dad's upgrading of 1 computer to Win 10 has been fraught with issues since the beginning. It's a crap shoot and to a certain point, I can understand given all the hardware/software combinations out there.

we have plenty of current and new software, but i dunno.

i turned off auto-updates natively. just do a google search. you dont ever have to update. i haven't updated my pc at home for a year. yea, they are all going to come in at once if you decide to do it.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

we have plenty of current and new software, but i dunno.

If it's something from Win 7 era on, probably no worries.

If one has from 9x, XP and Vista, that 9x support is what might get you.

Now, if you have nothing but 9x and it has a 16 bit installation stub, but the program itself is 32 bit, not really going to happen easily on a 64 bit version of Windows without using a 3rd party compatibility layer that adds back in 16 bit code on a 64 bit system.

Bare in mind too, the bloat that does allow for legacy programs, also brings about legacy vulnerabilities. So there is a trade off.

i turned off auto-updates natively

Unless your running the Enterprise version of Win 10, or you were able to do the registry edit before the change, natively is only differed is offered on Pro versions. Home version, sorry, just have to take it as it comes.

It is fine to use legacy operating systems if they efficiently run your production equipment.

This is the key thing right here. 100% agree.

I use Adobe Creative Suite, and have a much more streamlined and fast work flow if I stay up to date (let alone leveraging new features).

I'm not totally sold on this depending on what software your talking about with regard to "new features". Sometimes they are just gimmicks. Sound, look kinda cool, but the same tools that have been apart of a program for 20 yrs are still the best tools to use. They just work 100% of the time (depending on your knowledge and skill). It's not trying the gimmick, it works some of the time, but not all the time, then after trying to get the gimmick to work, have to default back to the tool that's been around for 20 yrs. Not all the time, but it seems to happen quite a bit.

I also use the cloud to store working files, and can generally access anything I need from any computer anywhere.

That can be done without using a 3rd party's "cloud". It depends on how sophisticated you want to get and not everyone wants to do that.

I still use on-site backup, but everything is also stored in the cloud, which is quite a bit more secure than a mechanical drive sitting on my shelf (I once had a backup drive go south when trying to restore the contents of a failed drive in my main PC, and lost three months of data.

Doesn't matter if it's on a drive on the shelf or on the "cloud", it's still on a drive somewhere and those drives do fail.

Now, one would hope that there are backups in place and security is in place, far more then what the average end user would be willing to do on those cloud services.

The bad thing is, things make the news that shouldn't be a thing at all. Period, especially with companies that have a dedicated IT staff that have control over data.

I don't obsess about having my data "stolen", and I don't really care if MS or Apple collect metadata about me and my usage habits.

It's less about this (with me anyway), then it is about security and stability, particularly for production sensitive workflows. The single vector of things that cause consternation is the internet. Be it updates, malware, whatever, that's the single biggest vector of what can cause things to go south.

If there are open connections that cannot be controlled by the user, then those are connections that could possibly be exploited.

Sacrificing security for convenience is not a good thing (this also goes into being able to run legacy software on newer OSs as well, great for those that want to keep running older software (and developers that are too lazy to target newer, more secure APIs) not so good from a security standpoint). It's probably the biggest thing that makes Windows one of the most exploited systems. Having a huge user base helps the motivation to seek those out.

Things are much simpler now ....

I agree with this, but not in a good way. We are going back to the "dummy terminal" days (except for programs that need to leverage local resources) and that's not good overall.