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Client's email leaves me at a loss for words...

mark in tx

New Member
You can change PDF files guys :)


I can drop a jpeg into a pdf, not gonna change much there.


Which is what I receive from some people and then I pretty much know they are trying to give me artwork that they didn't pay a release fee to someone else.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
I'll start with the last question first..

..do I provide native files, under what conditions and for what charge? Normally not, unless they've already paid for a logo & lost their copy, or they have become such a valuable client that I weigh the risk of losing work against the benefit of fostering good will.

Sorry, in my effort to keep the original question on point, I left out my background with this client. And I can see now that your response could very well be effected by it.

And since you were kinda enough to take the time to reply with such depth and wisdom.... maybe I can pick your brain a little more and ask... these days, is every cleint worth keeping?

Before you answer that, here's the story. Bob, Boopsie & Richard Head, the novel by gg
The cast in order of appearance:
Richard Head: the villein (hence the name)
Bob: average joe, nice guy & Boopsie hero
Boopsie: ever the damsel in distress
gg: narrator and go-to-gal

Probably 10 years ago I handled all the graphic work for a marketing firm, who sub contracted to my company. The first client I worked with for the marketing firm was Thing 1, a software company. They were please with the new corporate identity I created for them, and over the course of a two years, a good amount of work followed including all trade show marketing including the design of their booth.

Business was good, sub-contract work was a PITA, and represented only a small slice of the profit pie. A year later, Bob calls... he and Richard have bought out Thing 1 and want me to take over the marketing for Thing 2, same company... fresh face. I ask if they are still working with the marketing firm. Bob says they've been trying to get the last job wrapped up with the marketing firm, and won't be using them for anything else. I tell him as long as they are still working together, I'd have to pass. I liked the people with that group and while technically there was no conflict of interest, it didn't feel right to me.

Six months later Bob call, they've severed all ties with the marketing firm and the need a go-to-gal. Game on. I do tons of work for Thing 2. Bob's cool, Richard lives up to his name and is the embodiment of the phrase "i'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

We run into payment issues on the development of a huge website deal, but get it resolved. In a frantic rush to get them off to their trade show, they ask to take care of the balance on their trade show booth invoice upon their return. I'm stuck holding the bag for several thousand. I allow them to make payments, it's take six months and several threatening reminders from me... when the final payment was received I fired them.

Two years later Bob calls, he left Thing 2 and his wifey is starting up her own company. Bob at least knows the importance of setting the ground work for success and doesn’t question my fee for the corporate identity. They pay full price for her corporate identity and a brochure. Both Bob and Boopsie are a pleasure to work with, their corporate identity wins multiple adverting awards and everyone’s happy. However, Bob and Boopsie’s are struggling financially. They move and change phone numbers frequently, each time I update her business card at no charge and send them all new PDFs for their files. Over the course of a year I make changes to the brochure, they can’t afford real printing and print the brochures themselves. Their beautiful brochures look like crap. I rework the file, remove the bleeds and adjust the layout so their home printed brochure won’t look quite as bad.

The last time I heard from them they wanted needed to update Boopsies business card again and wanted to make changes to the brochure as well. Card update free, brochure changes not free… they only had me do the cards.

So, long story (not so short) these nice folks are not going to another designer. They are not asking for the source files, they want them in something they can edit… most likely Word. Soooo not happening… not no way, not no how.

So for that reason, I felt like my options were to provide them PDFs with no content, so they could set their own text, using the PDF as a background.

I don’t really care if they do their own edits or even if they go to another designer, I’m not losing any money with these folks.

If business is bad and they can’t afford to pay, I’d be making thing more difficult if I didn’t at least give them PDF templates to work from. They paid for that work already, I won’t be supplying fonts, or any source files and it wouldn’t take much time.

I’m feeling like a bit of a sucker, they get free work from me every time they call…but I’m ever mindful…when they were willing and could afford to pay… they called me.

I do find myself emotionally vested with my most of my clients and want to see them succeed. And the nice ones who appreciate the extra effort, I go above and beyond what they pay for to make that happen for them.

I think I just answered my own question.

The only fool proof way I've been inspired to strive for has to do with full disclosure of policy before the fact…
… clarifying this at the onset is to simply remind my clients they are asking for my tools, not their property. When they hire me, they benefit from the tools I retain from past transactions. I would assure them that those tools will be here to assist them when they need my services.
And since it appears few clients pay any attention to the invoice stating “final files in PDF format.” I will head your advice…

“full disclosure of policy before the fact” and “simply remind my clients they are asking for my tools, not their property”

I’ll let you know if the story has a happy ending, after I touch base with the client.

Hopefully they’ll appreciate it and in the future, they’ll be successful and I’ll be their go-to-gal then.

Don’t ya just love “Happy Endings.”
 
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Dice

New Member
umm not in acrobat reader though... and not without correct fonts, and not at all if the designer doesn't want them too...

That was the point iSign. I'm assuming that Gypsy supplied the client original with Vector Based, Outlined PDF files. The thing is, he DID supply him with editable files, just as the client asked. You can change Outlined PDF's, Rasterized JPEG's or any format for that matter, never said it would be easy. I can make a fully rastered file, outlined PDF, that say anything I like. To me as a designer I can take the files that Gypsy gave his client and make it say Pookies Retard Clothes with pictures of dancing midget bears.

The goal would be to say something to the client to make them realize that they already have editable design files, they just don't have the technical ability to edit them. This way he pays Gypsy for the changes. Now if he followed up with "my previous designer supplied me with inDesign files (Illustrator Files, Photoshop, etc) and i edited", then you would tackle that differently.
 
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GypsyGraphics

New Member
That was the point iSign. I'm assuming that Gypsy supplied the client original with Vector Based, Outlined PDF files. The thing is, he DID supply him with editable files, just as the client asked. You can change Outlined PDF's, Rasterized JPEG's or any format for that matter, never said it would be easy. I can make a fully rastered file, outlined PDF, that say anything I like. To me as a designer I can take the files that Gypsy gave his client and make it say Pookies Retard Clothes with pictures of dancing midget bears.

The goal would be to say something to the client to make them realize that they already have editable design files, they just don't have the technical ability to edit them. This way he pays Gypsy for the changes. Now if he followed up with "my previous designer supplied me with inDesign files (Illustrator Files, Photoshop, etc) and i edited", then you would tackle that differently.

DUDE!!!!!! stop calling me he!!!!!
you are a dude aren't you?

Your not the first, won't be the last... but it's starting to bug me.

Do I need to change my avatar back to GGfx.jpg

geeez now I can't even remember what i was going to say with regards to your post
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I thought in California, it was okay to call a woman a "dude"... the rule is though, the men have to out number the woman 5 to 1... and then dude must be used by the majority involved in the conversation...

It is not appropriate to machine gun "dude" a woman.. you know what I mean.. you are trying to speak over everyone and say "dude, dude, dude, dude.... to get their attention.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
I thought in California, it was okay to call a woman a "dude"... the rule is though, the men have to out number the woman 5 to 1... and then dude must be used by the majority involved in the conversation...

It is not appropriate to machine gun "dude" a woman.. you know what I mean.. you are trying to speak over everyone and say "dude, dude, dude, dude.... to get their attention.

Rick dude... I get the so cal dude thing, but Dice didn't call me "Dude" he called me "HE!" What the hell kinda go-to-gal, as stated several times above, would i be if I was a guy?????
 

Dice

New Member
DUDE!!!!!! stop calling me he!!!!!
you are a dude aren't you?

Your not the first, won't be the last... but it's starting to bug me.

Do I need to change my avatar back to View attachment 47183

geeez now I can't even remember what i was going to say with regards to your post


Sorry! Had no idea, my bad. Need to change your avatar to pink with flowers or something.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
Bob's Second Email

Just received this from Bob.

I am with you all the way, which is why I came to you in the first place. Boopsie is still developing the biz and does not have much money to work with on these matters. That first hit for the corp identity was a real stretch and she is trying to stay afloat. With economic conditions it has even been harder. Frankly, I would prefer to just have her call you for all her needs. She has many of them right now, including the need for a good website. I just need it to work for her financially. If you have ideas on how to make this work from a budgetary standpoint, you're our person 100%. The ___ biz is just not that high margin type business. Someday, she will be there. For now, it is a real grind. I do not mean to mess with any of the agreements, nor do I want to go anywhere else. I have tremendous loyalty to you Gigi. Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks much, Bob


Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Were the money's going to come from for the website????
 

weaselboogie

New Member
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Were the money's going to come from for the website????

Send this this:
http://www.internetonlinewebsite.com/

"Aquent just launched the ultimate Internet Online Website designed by The Barbarian Group. It's the perfect link to send that friend of a friend who just needs a simple website - you know, nothing too complex - a basic homepage with a couple pages of text, a video, some of that social networking stuff, and a small online shop."

This is the perfect link to send to a customer to educate them on the work involved in "throwing together" ( customer-speak to devalue the work involved ) a good website.
 

Dice

New Member
Just received this from Bob.

I am with you all the way, which is why I came to you in the first place. Boopsie is still developing the biz and does not have much money to work with on these matters. That first hit for the corp identity was a real stretch and she is trying to stay afloat. With economic conditions it has even been harder. Frankly, I would prefer to just have her call you for all her needs. She has many of them right now, including the need for a good website. I just need it to work for her financially. If you have ideas on how to make this work from a budgetary standpoint, you're our person 100%. The ___ biz is just not that high margin type business. Someday, she will be there. For now, it is a real grind. I do not mean to mess with any of the agreements, nor do I want to go anywhere else. I have tremendous loyalty to you Gigi. Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks much, Bob


Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Were the money's going to come from for the website????

Yes that is very nice! Love it! Nice and girly.

Is this guy a personal friend of yours or your family? He is pretty much begging. If it was me I would wait until EOD and reply, ignore his begging and reiterate your points again. X dollars for the change.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
Yes that is very nice! Love it! Nice and girly.

Is this guy a personal friend of yours or your family? He is pretty much begging. If it was me I would wait until EOD and reply, ignore his begging and reiterate your points again. X dollars for the change.

Nope, not a friend or family.
EOD? eve of destruction???
Begging? i didn't get that... but i like the sound of it

would you charge if the change was just for phone number and address on the business card... i mean if you were handling the printing as well?
 

weaselboogie

New Member
Nope, not a friend or family.
EOD? eve of destruction???
Begging? i didn't get that... but i like the sound of it

would you charge if the change was just for phone number and address on the business card... i mean if you were handling the printing as well?

SIMPLE text changes, no charge. If you have more than 5 minutes in changes, charge.
 

Dice

New Member
EOD = End of day

I wouldn't charge on simple changes if 1) Your doing the printing and 2) they don't want the files. Also depends on what your charging for the printing.

You should Create a list of standard Fees, what you do and don't charge for. Create them as policy. Stick to it and don't feel bad about making money. If your unsure on what to charge, post in the premium section and i'm sure we can all list what we charge.

This guy probably does this stuff to everyone, trying to see how far they will go. Boopsie is probably sitting at home on a pile of cash.
 

GypsyGraphics

New Member
You should Create a list of standard Fees, what you do and don't charge for. Create them as policy. Stick to it and don't feel bad about making money.

That's my problem in a nutshell... I've had set fees for 13 years... all anyone has to say to me for it all to go out the window is....
Non- Profit
Vertans
Kids
Animals
Financially Struggling

I mean really, these days, doesn't that cover just about everything and everyone! I really think someone else should be doing my billing, i'm so not cut out for this stuff.
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
That's my problem in a nutshell... I've had set fees for 13 years... all anyone has to say to me for it all to go out the window is....
Non- Profit
Vertans
Kids
Animals
Financially Struggling

I mean really, these days, doesn't that cover just about everything and everyone! I really think someone else should be doing my billing, i'm so not cut out for this stuff.

If the any of these people are driving up in a Hemi-Chrysler 300c with 23" wheels living in a posh side of town that has already invest 100k+ in a business wearing a Patek Philippe with any of these issues, it should not happen... in a rusted out Pinto with one hub cap, a blown out muffer, with radiator problems, then I am a sucka...
 
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