Client's email leaves me at a loss for words...

[GypsyGraphics]

What have you made for them?

Corporate Identity and Tri-Fold Brochure
The Tri-fold has had umpteen changes (no charge) and never printing other than on their printer. Every time they say their ready to print but "oh just need to minor changes to a few services." I make the changes, and then they just print it themselves again. All they ever had printed professional was 1 business card!!!!! Never printed their stationery, they just used one of the logo files and printed envelopes themselves!

Did they compensate you well for printing, your previous work, etc? Or, is this a "web" deal?

All design, layout and print work, with no outstanding balance per-say (you don't wanna get me started on that story)
But they just now brought up needing a website.

As I write this, I see a whole new problematic scenario developing. Getting a little pissed as I think about it.

Maybe it's time to stop being Frigg'n Mary Poppins with these folks. I get that a lot... the Mary Poppins thing. When i hear it i ALWAYS sarcastically add the Frigg'n.

We usually just release the files to the customer to keep them happy, if you are a printer; hopefully they will make their changes & come back for more printing, etc.
It's better to stay friends with them than to burn a bridge that you can never get back if you know what I mean.

"release files just to keep them happy" hmmmm at the moment I'm thinking I should release the files just to make them go away...
Could very well make me happier.

I think I asked this question in the first post, "is every client worth keeping"
Any thoughts on that? ... before i email them this morning.

 

[J Hill Designs]

quick answer: no

 

[Bigdawg]

I think I asked this question in the first post, "is every client worth keeping"
Any thoughts on that? ... before i email them this morning.

Nope... they aren't...

and it's always been Mary Friggin' Poppins in my mind

 

[GypsyGraphics]

OH MY GOD!!!!!! I'm gonna blow a F'n gasket here!!!!!

I'm actally in the process of writing them an email, tell then I'll have ALL their files zipped and available for download by the end of the day... NO CHARGE (just go away)

AND LOOK WHAT COMES IN!!!!! I'm so pissed I'm shaking!!!!!

Boopsie told me you spoke and now you need all of the changes needed to her files.I am looking thru what we did with you and realizing that we should have made everything modifiable. For example, the tri-fold brochure you made is excellent. But the minute a chance is needed to has to spend money. This is not a dig, it just seems that when a client pays a lot of money to create the format for something like a brochure they should be able to modify and an all text or objects. Boopsie should be able to change pictures, copy, prices, etc without having to pay because it is not a design issue, it is just data input. Paying graphic design fees for simple data changes is where the problems arise for Boopsie and she gets frustrated because she feels completely locked in to every thing she commits to which is why the decisions become so difficult and take so long. If a template is creates with fields for entering or modifying data and object. When I wrote software programs i had to make things modifiable for the client, so virtually everything could be changed but the basic form is locked.I know you mentioned this in a recent email. I just could not understand Boopsie's frustration. Now I am realizing she has not used her brochures hardly at all after spending all that money because she cannot afford the changes. Less than 30 days after the brochure was created she had to modify a few simple things and pricing. Once she heard the cost she just gave up and stopped using everything. She created simple cards and flyers on Vista Print just so that she had something to hand out.I fully understand your business model probably creates a situation where you want clients to be forced to come back for residual work and income but I can also see where this has been real challenge for Boopsie.Is there a solution? I am cranky at the moment (not at you) because I see these beautiful flyers, envelopes, biz cards etc that have hardly been used because of what I am mentioned above. Or, she has just printed stuff out on regular paper at home and handed that out so there was a tangible connection to her. Talk about a horrible first impression. Sadly for her this is how it has gone for this last couple of years.Let's please fix it for her somehow.Thanks. Bob


NO MORE MARY Frigg'n POPPINS!!!! (stacy's way)
There's getting Mary F'n Poppins with a twisted now.... GG!
OOOOOO uppercase G's... their in trouble now!

better let myself cool down before writing back

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Gypsy -

We just say, if you pay us several thousand dollars for your web site, brochure, stationery- whatever - we also will burn a CD with all the files we used to execute your job. We just consider that to be the right thing to do, and they are free to go elsewhere for reprints, or go to another web designer - etc. Most don't however.

Here's how my contract reads. This is at the end, not part of the job description:

"Upon agreement of this proposal, a payment schedule detailed below will be followed. Upon payment in full, Graphic D-Signs, Inc. shall provide all necessary files, source files and any additional files used to create the web site, brochures or stationery files. Web files will be provided in industry standard formats (Fireworks, Dreamweaver and Photoshop files.). Print files are created using Photoshop, Quark and Freehand. We can not be responsible for providing other versions of your art files which are not compatible with these industry-standard programs. Converting files to formats other than those listed would require additional fees, billed out hourly at $125/hr."

 

[signmeup]

Geez.....tell him to buy the software you use and let him modify his brains out. Or pay you to do it.

 

[Dice]

I'm guessing when you send him the files he will write back "What are these? I can't Edit these!"

 

[Dice]

Make sure you convert everything to Outlines You can't send him fonts.

 

[Rick]

Not everything in a design belongs to the designer to hand off to another party. The work is worth more, if the object being designed is being used past it's scope of work.

Giving source files may not be the right thing to do... it really depends. Standard practice (if you go by GAG and AIGA "standards") vs clip art and image use can make transferring source files a sticky situation. It may not be a matter of holding a client hostage, but is the content transferable? The other thing is some of us price per the usage and impressions and are charged certain stock photo fees for the same thing. Giving up source files changes the "scope of work" that the work was originally contracted for.

On the brochure, if it was known that prices would need updating to the point where it would be hard to go to their designer, then you charge accordingly to release the source files while making sure 3rd party images were transferable or that the client pays foor transferring and paying for the rights and pay for the fonts too.

But I do release logo artwork, some original design work and layouts as long as I get paid enough and I know the scope is within the usage it was designed for. I also release artwork/construction documentation (in outlines) of signage to clients for sign maintenance reasons, especially code signs.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

Dan, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input, especially now when "cooler heads must prevail."

Clearly, in reading the responses by Rick, iSign, Rodi, Arlo ect, ect... I'm in this position because of my vague description as to the format of the final files. I intend to correct that intimately.

Most clients know what a PDF is and glaze over when I talk about source or native files. What at least I thought they understood was, they leave with with high resolution PDF files that are press ready. Their CD has two folder "Professional Print" and "Self Print" with the appropriate files in each. I do not ask suggested by some, "hold their files hostage." While client's usually want me to handle the printing, they are never pressured to do so.

Gypsy - We just say, if you pay us several thousand dollars for your web site, brochure, stationery- whatever - we also will burn a CD with all the files we used to execute your job. We just consider that to be the right thing to do, and they are free to go elsewhere for reprints, or go to another web designer - etc. Most don't however.

I thought I was doing exactly that, giving them files they could go elsewhere with, to the printer of their choice, the web developer of their choice. But what I don't do, even when source files are released, is include for example the a layered PSD file, that would be my working file, what they would get it the flattened version. I do consider all the work that goes into all the layers my intellectual property. I don't feel they are untitled to the methods I used and providing a flattens file gives them the end result while masking my methods. It wasn't that long ago that native, layered PSD files could even be place in your layout file.

Here's how my contract reads. This is at the end, not part of the job description:

"Upon agreement of this proposal, a payment schedule detailed below will be followed. Upon payment in full, Graphic D-Signs, Inc. shall provide all necessary files, source files and any additional files used to create the web site, brochures or stationery files. Web files will be provided in industry standard formats (Fireworks, Dreamweaver and Photoshop files.). Print files are created using Photoshop, Quark and Freehand. We can not be responsible for providing other versions of your art files which are not compatible with these industry-standard programs. Converting files to formats other than those listed would require additional fees, billed out hourly at $125/hr."

With your permission I'd like to use almost verbam what you've written. It's concise and leaves no room for misunderstandings or confusion.

Confusion like as with this client, who was giving PDF files they could have sent to print and didn't and now want an editable version in something other than InDesign (if I remember correctly he only has Word).

I think my biggest frustration is Bob thinking I've somehow been unfair or deceptive by creating the work in a program he doesn't have.

Again, your contract term would have eliminated that as well.

 

[joeshaul]

As a former programmer, his comparison is flawed. I would charge someone extra if they asked for a change to the software I developed, and there were generally two forms of applications I would make:
1. Applications made specific to a client's needs and only that client
2. Applications made for mass appeal or targeted to an industry

The latter (#2) would oftentimes have a lot of changeable values so people could tweak to their company needs. The former (#1) wouldn't, as I'd be designing it for that specific person, so if they wanted me to change all the button colors around so they matched the company's colors, put a company logo in the about box, blahdeblah, I'd do it, but have to recompile and so on, so they'd be charged. The added functionality/versatility of #2 is recovered from the fact that multiple people will be purchasing. It takes a lot more code to add a user palette to customize changing a form dynamically and store that information for later user, than to just go to a property box and click green/yellow/etc then rebuild for the client.

The graphic design aspect is very similar to #1, we are not in the industry to be the next Vista Print. Programmers oftentimes will have revision clauses, especially when it comes to UI revisions for this reason, graphic designers oftentimes do the same "two minor revisions included in the cost".

 

[weaselboogie]

"Print files are created using Photoshop, Quark and Freehand. We can not be responsible for providing other versions of your art files which are not compatible with these industry-standard programs. Converting files to formats other than those listed would require additional fees, billed out hourly at $125/hr"

That's nice. YOU are a professional, you use PROFESSIONAL programs to produce PROFESSIONAL product. These cannot be 'dumbed' down to the point of being editable by mspaint or word. And you're not making TEMPLATES as bob stated. These are final pieces. Maybe they should plan ahead a bit so they don't need to constantly be making changes.

Someone had stated before, .. sure bob, it's editable and you can do it yourself. You just need to cough up $700 for indesign and hours of training and you can save yourself a few coins.

Do you think I could call up FORD and raise a stinkfit because I wanted to change out my transmission, but I wanted to be able to do it only using a flathead screwdriver?

 

[GypsyGraphics]

I'm about to send the following email... any thoughts before I hit send.


Bob,

You should have quit will you were ahead. The inaccuracy in your email below prompted me to review your projects, revisions and billings.

Back in February of 2007, you saw the value in hiring a professional designer to create Boopsie’s corporate identity. In March, even before the Boopsie had finalized her choice of stationery layouts, you again saw the value in having a professional designed brochure. As a professional, I use only industry standard design and layout software. Had you asked me to layout the brochure in Word, I’d have declined the job. There was not then, and is not now, a rate that I would be willing to entirely recreate a layout in Word or any other non-professional program. If you own a full version of Adobe Acrobat (not the limited Acrobat Reader) you have the ability to make minor edits to all the PDF you were given. Any professional printer would also be able to make changes for you as well, however they will likely charge you for that service.

Of your many statements that are incorrect I’m particularly bothered by the one that states; “30 days after the brochure was created, that I charged for a few simple modifications and copy changes.” Boopsie’s brochure took a record-breaking 9 months to complete. After approval of the design and layout, 7 months of copy changes followed and not once did I bill for additional changes, even when Boopsie was here in my office for hours while the layout was reworked to accommodate the changes in her fees and services. Even after the final invoice on Dec. 13, 200, on numerous occasion revisions were made at no charge for six months.

In June 2007, Boopsie asked me to create a layout for a new shop where she was working, by the time that job was complete, including the purchase of images and no less than 4 copy revisions, Boopsie was no longer working there and cancelled the job, without so much as a reimbursement for the image purchased on her behalf.

Over a year after the completion of the corporate identity, all information, front and back, was changed on the business card. Boopsie was bill for 15 minutes of service, a mere $25.

After agreeing to rework Boopsie’s cards at no charge, if I handle the printing (1,000, full color, two sided $75) Boopsie said she would also need 100 business cards with her assistant’s information, modifications and printing immediately.

My willingness to make modifications at no charge so often, in consideration of your finances, has clearly set an expectation that needs to be reset. So, after carefully considering, I’ve decided to rescind my offer of any free work. Now and in the future if you are in need of my services, please email with a clear description of each project and I will provide an estimate for your consideration.

-GG

 

[Dice]

I'm about to send the following email... any thoughts before I hit send.


Bob,

You should have quite will you were ahead. The inaccuracy in your email below prompted me to review your projects, revisions and billings.

Back in February of 2007, you saw the value in hiring a professional designer to create Boopsie’s corporate identity. In March, even before the Boopsie had finalized her choice of stationery layouts, you again saw the value in having a professional designed brochure. As a professional, I use only industry standard design and layout software. Had you asked me to layout the brochure in Word, I’d have declined the job. There was not then, and is not now, a rate that I would be willing to entirely recreate a layout in Word or any other non-professional program. If you own a full version of Adobe Acrobat (not the limited Acrobat Reader) you have the ability to make minor edits to all the PDF you were given. Any professional printer would also be able to make changes for you as well, however they will likely charge you for that service.

Of your many statements that are incorrect I’m particularly bothered by the one that states; “30 days after the brochure was created, that I charged for a few simple modifications and copy changes.” Boopsie’s brochure took a record-breaking 9 months to complete. After approval of the design and layout, 7 months of copy changes followed and not once did I bill for additional changes, even when Boopsie was here in my office for hours while the layout was reworked to accommodate the changes in her fees and services. Even after the final invoice on Dec. 13, 200, on numerous occasion revisions were made at no charge for six months.

In June 2007, Boopsie asked me to create a layout for a new shop where she was working, by the time that job was complete, including the purchase of images and no less than 4 copy revisions, Boopsie was no longer working there and cancelled the job, without so much as a reimbursement for the image purchased on her behalf.

Over a year after the completion of the corporate identity, all information, front and back, was changed on the business card. Boopsie was bill for 15 minutes of service, a mere $25.

After agreeing to rework Boopsie’s cards at no charge, if I handle the printing (1,000, full color, two sided $75) Boopsie said she would also need 100 business cards with her assistant’s information, modifications and printing immediately.

My willingness to make modifications at no charge so often, in consideration of your finances, has clearly set an expectation that needs to be reset. So, after carefully considering, I’ve decided to rescind my offer of any free work. Now and in the future if you are in need of my services, please email with a clear description of each project and I will provide an estimate for your consideration.

-GG

Good Work. I can't believe you would put up with that client.

 

[bigwebman]

I'm about to send the following email... any thoughts before I hit send.


Bob,

You should have quite will you were ahead.

-GG

GG, I am sure you meant "quit". I think the e-mail looks good, to the point, and not mean spirited. I am sure you would like to be rid of these people!

 

[Bigdawg]

I actually think you should take the quit while you are ahead thing out... put yourself above it and just point out the facts he seems to have forgotten.

But if you want to leave it in, there's a term used to describe me at the moment I turn from mildly annoyed to "oh-no-you-didn't." My husband calls it "insta-b!t$h" and it's probably pretty accurate That one line IMHO takes it from professional to insta-****

EDITED TO ADD: post below is right - grammar and spelling need to be fixed before that goes anywhere...

 

[signmeup]

Don't send that out. There are dozens of typos and grammatical errors for a start. It sounds very unprofessional for another. Keep it short and to the point. State what you are willing to do from here on and leave it at that. Bob will forward that email to everyone he knows and it's such a mess you'll be embarrassed about it for years to come.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

bigwebman, thanks for the "quit" correction... kinda loses it's punch with a typo.

Stacy, i haven't been able to hit the send button yet.... maybe that part is bugging me too. I was trying to stop being such a wus. In fact, see that great little baby Dice has for his avatar? I wanna look like that when I hit send... make that "you wanna piece a me" face with a chubby little fist. Although, I think even that baby is more convincing... he'd have hit the button a hour ago.

 

[weaselboogie]

I actually think you should take the quit while you are ahead thing out....

Agreed.

I think the biggest thing is that they have taken you for granted and taken advantage of your generosity. Like you have stated, this takes professional software and you would have declined the job had it must have been created to cater to a word document. "Could not produce the professional results that were required " From what it looks, you have given much of your time for free and it goes unappreciated.. again and again and again. "I would be happy to estimate cost on any future changes, but will no longer be able to make changes for free." By stating something like that they will have known that they have crossed the line without having to state "quit while you were ahead".

The tone of your whole response will be the deciding factor on whether they stay or you passive aggressively fired them.

Some people are ALWAYS victims no matter how generous you may be.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

Before I post what I think is the email I'll be sending Bob today, I want to thank SignMeUp for bring to my attention the unprofessional nature of my prior email. I think for my own sanity I had to confirm that I had been nice and they had been unappreciative.

While I can't bring myself to totally ignore what I felt was a slight of my character, I did remove the history of our business relationship.

So.... before I hit send......


Bob,

I hope I’m not reading into your email a tone that was not intended, as it sounded less than cordial.

I feel I must address the inaccuracy in your statement claiming Boopsie was unable to use her brochure due to my fees for needed modifications.

Boopsie’s brochure took a record-breaking 9 months to complete. After approval of the design and layout, 7 months of copy changes followed. Even after the final invoice was paid on Dec. 13, 2007, I still accommodated numerous revisions over the next six months, at no charge.

From my perspective, I’ve been quite accommodating. However, I don’t want you or Boopsie to feel slighted in anyway, so for that reason I’ve decided to prepare two new sets of files for you. The files will be PDF backgrounds of your complete stationary package and the tri-fold brochure. Just as on your original CD, you’ll see folders titled for "professional print" and "self-print." All files will be high resolution PDF’s with no text, other than the graphic text on the front cover of the brochure; allowing you to set your own copy, in whatever program you chose, giving you the ability to make edits as needed.

Since you are having trouble locating your original files, I will include a third folder with all the original high resolution PDF’s. If you own a full version of Adobe Acrobat (not the limited Acrobat Reader) you have the ability to make minor edits to all the original PDF files. Any professional printer would also be able to make changes for you as well, however they will likely charge you for that service.

For future reference, please be advised that as a professional, I use only industry standard design and layout software, and adhere to the strict guidelines that govern the transfer of images and fonts. I offer no option for layouts to be created in a more consumer-oriented program, such as Microsoft Word. Consequently, I do not handle any printing other than my own files, which I know to be of professional print quality.

I would recommend you consider ____ Printing in ____. They are a full service professional printer but also work directly with consumers and the files they commonly use. Since they now provide digital short-runs, I think you’ll find there services affordable.


Respectfully,
Gigi