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Cloud Software - What do you use?

CES020

New Member
as a matter of fact, all the servers, data storage and the like are in the vault, someone can come steal the computers out of the various offices, they will get no actual data as it is not stored locally on the machine itself

backups are made and taken home to a different safe

i don't file taxes, my accountant does

we could argue this forever, i will never have my client files, quickbook files, cyrious files, etc uploaded to a website, it is not practical for this company

i understand how the world is gone all technology bound and ease of this and that, but there is still a sense of security about knowing "who" has access to your business information

+1

I love the argument against not using the cloud for everything. "What if the business was hit by a natural disaster so large that it wiped out the entire business, your home, your bank, and everywhere else you stored your data".

Yeah, that happens a lot.........I guess......

If my business is wiped out, my home is gone, my bank is gone, then probably most all of my customers are gone too, so I think I''ll cross that bridge when I get there.

I'm fine with the cloud for our business as long as it's not "mission critical". If the server goes down or our internet is out for some reason, I must be able to continue running my business. That would mean quoting, and job information for work in progress. If I lose that ability by an outside force I have no control over, then I'll pass.
 

ucmj22

New Member
backups are made and taken home to a different safe

It sounds like you are doing offsite storage anyway wich is what I was advocating. the only problem is that it might be too close to the shop. The biggest problem with restarting a shop after a disaster is not replacing the equipment, Insurance companies will take care of that in short order. What insurance companies can not do is buy you a brand new set of files.
 

signswi

New Member
The computers are networked and if any of them are on the internet it's not that hard to pierce if someone was motivated. I would imagine at least one of the non-vaulted computers has root at some level, if only for throwing art production files around. Realistically a sign shop is an incredibly low interest target. But yes, we could go on forever. I guess I've worked in too many businesses that ignored ways they could solve their issues if they were only more tech contemporary, instead they throw gobs of money at trying to solve yesterday's tech issues because they're so behind the curve. The exchange server example I used earlier is a real world example from a former employer who spends nearly six figures a year (salary + contractors) on IT to service an old busted exchange system for 70 employees, when they could go hosted exchange (or Gmail for Business) for magnitudes less. One example in hundreds I've come across.

It's good that you have offsite I've just never liked sneakernet. Too easy to forget the one day you need it. Big believer in offloading brain cycles.
 

ucmj22

New Member
+1
I love the argument against not using the cloud for everything. "What if the business was hit by a natural disaster so large that it wiped out the entire business, your home, your bank, and everywhere else you stored your data".

Yeah, that happens a lot.........I guess......

Fires and Robberies aren't all that uncommon. it took me, personally, 0 hours of labor to build my building, or purchase my printer, so I would just like to make sure that the countless hours of my life spent gathering fonts, stock photos and vector and then merging them all in to, dare I say it, modern digital masterpieces, doesn't disappear in the smoke.
 

gnemmas

New Member
It is more of a Control issue. I don't have problem with my money in the cloud bank. I can switch as I wish. There are plenty of other bank to choose, and the DATA is common US Currency.

However, when it is a proprietary DATA format that is operating our day to day break and butter, the fear of lose Control is real.

Switching from one POS software to another is a major undertaking. Let's say the $129/mo VOX subscription decided to up it to $200/mo, what can we do?
 

ucmj22

New Member
It is more of a Control issue. I don't have problem with my money in the cloud bank. I can switch as I wish. There are plenty of other bank to choose, and the DATA is common US Currency.

However, when it is a proprietary DATA format that is operating our day to day break and butter, the fear of lose Control is real.

Switching from one POS software to another is a major undertaking. Let's say the $129/mo VOX subscription decided to up it to $200/mo, what can we do?

Instead of paying for a subscription we have created our own cloud. We purchased a mac mini server for a grand and put it in an undisclosed location far enough away from our shop to be considered redundant, and your local server automatically timemachine backups to the external server at 1am. one time cost of a 'G' plus electricity and internet cost for the external if you want to be exact. A fair price for peace of mind, I think.
 

wildside

New Member
ucmj22;871873Insurance companies will take care of that in short order. What insurance companies can not do is buy you a brand new set of files.[/QUOTE said:
carry enough insurance and those files aren't needed on the beach......

if the god awful horrible happened and wiped out everything, my insurance payment would be higher than what i would sell the business for anyway, so like i said i would head south...lol....

as far as this cloud based software for the sign software, i don't know much about it, but i do know that one year of paying the monthly fee could have bought my cyrious software, and we have had it for 4 years so i guess i have saved thousands of dollars by having actual hardware and software on location......and no, we haven't thrown gobs of money at maintaining equipment, maybe 200-300 bucks in tech support over 4 years.......
 

The Vector Doctor

Chief Bezier Manipulator
Found this comment at a site talking about cloud data...

"“The real question is: Is your data that valuable? When your data and my data are sitting in an archive with 50,000 terabytes of other people’s data, is yours really going to be the one that somebody teases out?” he says. “It’s highly unlikely.”

What concerns me most would be some of the online services that offer accounting, invoicing, billing, etc. What happens when the company goes under? I don't have a problem with backup software, because it is just that.... a backup of something you already have. Cloud based programs concern me a bit unless you could also have a copy of the data on your own computer

Take this website mentioned earlier.... Freshbooks. Is the data proprietary? Are you locked in? What happens when you switch to another invoicing software? Maybe this one will be around 10-20+ years from now, but will all of them?
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
"“The real question is: Is your data that valuable? When your data and my data are sitting in an archive with 50,000 terabytes of other people’s data, is yours really going to be the one that somebody teases out?” he says. “It’s highly unlikely.”

The thing is, that's probably a selling point to everyone out there. Someone is going to be the unlucky bastard whose information gets "teased" out.

Really, nothing is 100% secure. Even if your business computers are totally offline, you have to make sure that there is zero connection to an online computer to those business computes. No usb drive, cell phone hookup(wireless or usb connection) that had a remote connection to the internet. Otherwise there is always the possibility of "infection" no matter how small the chances are.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of cloud based computing, although, I do believe that eventually it might be the way that everyone goes. I also have the luxury of only having a very small amount of computers that I need to update and I can't reconcile the cost (all associated costs, not just money) of switching over.
 

signswi

New Member
Found this comment at a site talking about cloud data...

"“The real question is: Is your data that valuable? When your data and my data are sitting in an archive with 50,000 terabytes of other people’s data, is yours really going to be the one that somebody teases out?” he says. “It’s highly unlikely.”

What concerns me most would be some of the online services that offer accounting, invoicing, billing, etc. What happens when the company goes under? I don't have a problem with backup software, because it is just that.... a backup of something you already have. Cloud based programs concern me a bit unless you could also have a copy of the data on your own computer

Take this website mentioned earlier.... Freshbooks. Is the data proprietary? Are you locked in? What happens when you switch to another invoicing software? Maybe this one will be around 10-20+ years from now, but will all of them?

Freshbooks can export to Quickbooks and a bunch of other formats, I wouldn't use it if the data wasn't portable. Considering a switch off of it though as there are new competitors at lower price points but haven't made the move yet and they've been a very good service for me in my freelance life. Pretty easy to defray the costs through affiliate referrals as well but that's another topic. I probably wouldn't recommend it for a business with heavy inventory though, there are better solutions for that.

As to your first point, that's sort of the odds game we play in life everywhere. Drive your car today? You're risking the odds that some idiot won't end you because they wanted to text while smoking while eating a pancake. Sign shops are pretty low priority targets, it's more likely that your web host will get hacked and your site defaced due to some common shared hosting vulnerability exploited by a scanning script than that you'll be targeted and your data pursued on heavily encrypted cloud services or your localized installs.
 

choucove

New Member
Off-site remote backup using a network can be a great idea if you have the right circumstances for it, otherwise you're spending a TON of money to try and make something work that just simply won't.

At our office we once considered putting in a simple backup server at our other office (located an hour and a half away) that would back up all the data from our primary office remotely there in case of a disaster. Here's why we decided against this though:

1) Cost: To set this up, we'd be needing to add another server of some kind, even if it weren't incredibly powerful, that could store at least a terabyte of data in a RAID array just in case of failures, and would have to be able to reside on the network and accessible from the outside world while still remaining secure from viruses, malware, intrusion, etc. etc. Basically, the best way to do this is to get a dedicated firewall appliance with a VPN tunnel capability. The cheapest device that I know of that can do this is the SonicWall TZ100, and we would have to have one for each side of the network to build the tunnel and secure both locations (the source file server in Colby, and the destination backup server in Hays.) On hardware alone, you're looking at an initial cost of more than $1,000.

2) Network Connections: In rural America there aren't a whole lot of great internet speed offerings yet. We're using the best DSL package available at our Colby office of 3Mb/s download 1Mb/s upload, and at our Hays office have been running 1.5Mb/s download and 300Kb/s upload. This speed is WAY too slow to be transferring large chunks of data across the network from one place to another on a regular basis. We estimated that on average our shop has about five to ten gigabytes of data that is created or modified in some way during the course of a day, so if we have the server set to automatically back up nightly all new data (again, an incremental backup of JUST new and modified data) it would take approximately 12 hours or more to transfer that data across the network, and you better hope that you don't have a network drop during that time or you can corrupt your data and your backup fails. And networks around here drop regularly... My internet provider is known for having at least one network drop per day.

Given the massive cost to perform this backup, it's much more feasible for us to make remote backups using external hard drive to an off-site secure storage like your bank or another safe. Instead of $1,000 up front costs and having to pay more than $100 per month per location for a very slight increase in internet speed, it's more feasible to buy a few high-capacity hard drives and do the backups yourself, even if you have it set up on a schedule to run automatically and you just move the drives off-site. If internet speeds around here were faster, less expensive, and the data that we had to push across the network was less, then yes off-site network-based backups would be great to use but only if you have control of the backup as well.

Just remember, DropBox has been under fire lately since announcing in their privacy policy that they in fact do have access to all data on their servers. It's only company policy that technicians should not access the data, but that doesn't actually prevent them at all from having the ability to do so. I believe that cloud computing can be great in the right circumstances and for the right reasons, but it is not to a point of being universal by any means. It's a tool to perform a specific job, just like you wouldn't want to try and cut through a sheet of plywood using a pair of scissors.
 

Techman

New Member
I just went through the perils of an offsite server being down. I held a training seminar at my office using video streaming feeds. What a friggin waste of time and money. I was not able to log in to the streaming data "cloud" server. The site would "time out during log in. I called them repeatedly and they said the system was online.
Finally Monday morning I called and got a real techy who finally admitted it was down all weekend. I pinged the site myself and knew they had a problem with their log in page.

This event coupled with a few other experiences with online networks and data bases over the years leads me to having no use for anything "cloud" related. In most cases "cloud" is just another name for a FTP server, or a streaming server. What a racket. Charging for what was once usually free.
 

signswi

New Member
There's a lot of misuse of the term cloud, definitely. Marketing fluff. I don't really consider point to point streaming to be cloud, that's just a typical server/client relationship. Cloud is a term like Web 2.0, relatively meaningless, many different definitions, way over used for marketing purposes.

The Dropbox privacy issue was interesting and why it's important to know who your dealing with online just like how it's important to do so in the brick world. Dropbox I think scaled faster than they were expecting and got much more business use than expected. It was developed and targeted as a tool for personal consumer use originally and they failed to build in corporate level privacy protections. Everything in my Dropbox is encrypted anyway so it's not really a concern for me, but an interesting discussion and example.

The bandwidth issue is also very real, however not to applicable for me as I would never live in a city without it. Neither my wife's or my job are sustainable in such an environment, plus we wouldn't be able to handle it--not small town people. I've been on broadband since 1996, fast internet is almost as important to me as air. It's a shame the rollout has stalled so much in the US but the telcos all switched their buildout emphasis to cellular towers so it's a bit of a transition period in many areas of the country that never got a good broadband rollout. However we're on the fringes of a political discussion here about internet access as a utility and citizen right, and that's pretty off topic ;).
 
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choucove

New Member
I think what makes things very difficult right now, and where a lot of the discussions come in on this issue, is trying to define what IS the "cloud." Just like Techman said, a lot of what is considered the "cloud" today is just a more fancy way of accessing old remote technologies like FTP. Cloud computing is still such a hectic and confusing realm because it's not definable in any way yet. There is no standard, there is no uniformity, there really is no solid definition. For instance, a lot of people here mentioned using website to access their company email, but to me this would just be considered a mail client, only web based, similar to using Microsoft Outlook, Gmail, or even Hotmail.

I think a prime example of cloud data and computing is an IMAP email server, or even web-based email. You have actual data that is residing on a cluster of computers somewhere in the world accessible by using some kind of login or credential authentication, and then sending that data back to your local machine for access. Yet, email, and this technology of storing email data on an email server elsewhere than the local machine, is not a new technology at all but has been around for many years. A lot of places are comfortable having their email handled by servers and providers outside their own control, just like hotmail, google, and all the rest.
 

CES020

New Member
Keeping in mind, many of us don't know what we don't know.

I had an online business I setup for a friend and I kept it running for him a number of years ago. It was on a dedicated server, done through a web hosting site. The web hosting company was owned buy a guy that was a tech guru with all that stuff. He was basically the middle man to a big data farm, branded with his stuff all over it.

For over a year, any issues, I call him, no problems. Then, one day, the site goes down. I call him, he looks into it, comes back and tells me that the server actually fried. I told him "Okay, so just restore the backup on a new server and we're all good".

His comment "What backup?".

I said "The one you do every night, like you've down since we've been with you".

He said "Oh, that stopped a year ago. I changed the terms on those accounts".

I said "So how do I get my online store back up and running, since YOU were the backup point for it?".

He said "You don't".

Now, it was all mySql and php, all stuff running on a linux server. 3 things I knew nothing about. So me using putty to log in and backup something wasn't happening, since I didn't understand how to do any of it. That's why we used him. Because he knew, he was told many times we didn't know how to do it all, so he always said he handled it all for us.

Sure, I should have known, but I didn't know what I didn't know.

Our internet was recently down for 4 days. Not sure if anyone else deals with comcast, but trying to get a human that can actually understand the situation and do something about it is rare. No matter how many times I called, all I got was a customer service rep telling me they were working on it.

If we were in the cloud, we'd have been able to do almost nothing. Instead, we lost no work, no jobs, no days of production.
 

ucmj22

New Member
Keeping in mind, many of us don't know what we don't know.

I had an online business I setup for a friend and I kept it running for him a number of years ago. It was on a dedicated server, done through a web hosting site. The web hosting company was owned buy a guy that was a tech guru with all that stuff. He was basically the middle man to a big data farm, branded with his stuff all over it.

For over a year, any issues, I call him, no problems. Then, one day, the site goes down. I call him, he looks into it, comes back and tells me that the server actually fried. I told him "Okay, so just restore the backup on a new server and we're all good".

His comment "What backup?".

I said "The one you do every night, like you've down since we've been with you".

He said "Oh, that stopped a year ago. I changed the terms on those accounts".

I said "So how do I get my online store back up and running, since YOU were the backup point for it?".

He said "You don't".

Now, it was all mySql and php, all stuff running on a linux server. 3 things I knew nothing about. So me using putty to log in and backup something wasn't happening, since I didn't understand how to do any of it. That's why we used him. Because he knew, he was told many times we didn't know how to do it all, so he always said he handled it all for us.

Sure, I should have known, but I didn't know what I didn't know.

Our internet was recently down for 4 days. Not sure if anyone else deals with comcast, but trying to get a human that can actually understand the situation and do something about it is rare. No matter how many times I called, all I got was a customer service rep telling me they were working on it.

If we were in the cloud, we'd have been able to do almost nothing. Instead, we lost no work, no jobs, no days of production.

Thats why I recommend doing your own offsite backup. Its relatively simple for us since we run an all mac environment.
 

signswi

New Member
Keeping in mind, many of us don't know what we don't know.

I had an online business I setup for a friend and I kept it running for him a number of years ago. It was on a dedicated server, done through a web hosting site. The web hosting company was owned buy a guy that was a tech guru with all that stuff. He was basically the middle man to a big data farm, branded with his stuff all over it.

For over a year, any issues, I call him, no problems. Then, one day, the site goes down. I call him, he looks into it, comes back and tells me that the server actually fried. I told him "Okay, so just restore the backup on a new server and we're all good".

His comment "What backup?".

I said "The one you do every night, like you've down since we've been with you".

He said "Oh, that stopped a year ago. I changed the terms on those accounts".

I said "So how do I get my online store back up and running, since YOU were the backup point for it?".

He said "You don't".

Now, it was all mySql and php, all stuff running on a linux server. 3 things I knew nothing about. So me using putty to log in and backup something wasn't happening, since I didn't understand how to do any of it. That's why we used him. Because he knew, he was told many times we didn't know how to do it all, so he always said he handled it all for us.

Sure, I should have known, but I didn't know what I didn't know.

Our internet was recently down for 4 days. Not sure if anyone else deals with comcast, but trying to get a human that can actually understand the situation and do something about it is rare. No matter how many times I called, all I got was a customer service rep telling me they were working on it.

If we were in the cloud, we'd have been able to do almost nothing. Instead, we lost no work, no jobs, no days of production.

On the flip side of that we've lost days of production because Cyrious went down. If it had been a cloud service the onus of responsibility would have been on the SaaS provider (not to mention the onus of data integrity). Two sides to the coin. Also sounds like you used a fly by night hosting reseller and got burned, which is why it's important to research who you do business with. The policies should be clear and easily accessible and the personalities behind it trustworthy. Unlike comcast ;P.
 

CES020

New Member
Yes, I'm much smarter (didn't say I was smart, just smarter than I was then!) now.

Presently, we have our storage here, at the shop, online, offsite backup, flash drive, which is carried off site, and DVD's which are kept off site.

I'd like to think what happened to me before won't happen again, but you never know, because you don't know what you don't know :)
 

signswi

New Member
Definitely. Careful with DVDs, typical DVDs aren't rated for very long term and fire rated safes are usually only rated for paper, not for plastic media (so when you buy a safe for onsite/offsite storage, make sure it's media rated). Paper has a high ignition temperature, way above the warping/data corruption point of a DVD/magnetic tape/etc. Buying a media rated safe and archival rated DVDs will help mitigate that risk if that's the route you choose to go--keeping in mind that DVDs are following CDs and Tape and Zip Drives and Floppy Discs down the path to obsolescence.
 
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