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CNC Routers: If you had to pick ...
- Thread starter Nicholedene
- Start date
We have a fourteen year old Gerber Sabre 408, excellent machine. Last month we installed an AXYZ Pacer, AXYZ engineer set in up, tested it and trained operators for two days. I don't think any machine without factory installation could be considered "industrial". The AXYZ Pacer is a wonderful machine I must say.
A good used AXYZ, Gerber or Mulitcam is a safe bet and preferred over a Shopbot. No offense to anyone, we run them, 8 hours or more per day, 5 days per week and they just run.
A good used AXYZ, Gerber or Mulitcam is a safe bet and preferred over a Shopbot. No offense to anyone, we run them, 8 hours or more per day, 5 days per week and they just run.
That's fine if the guy is as talented as you, but the average user will ruin a ton of material and spend hours upon hours screwing around with the Shopbot.
If you want a solid machine at a low price get a Limac for $8K to 12K or a used AXYZ or Gerber etc. and make signs, not repairs and mods to a bolt together CNC.
fixtureman
New Member
Why would you not ruin a ton of material with a Limac or Gerber, multicam, or any other machine. Do these machine automatically keep you from making mistakes. I have not had to do any major repairs to my Shopbot and the ones I did I could do myself not like the $250,000 machines I run at work. They have to bring in a tech just to do a small repair
artbot
New Member
.... well currently (for the last year, since the partnership, i've elected to un-employ myself while developing a new line....) if you want to make money, don't "tinker".
as for the shopbot, mine has been crazy solid. i think i've spent all off $5 in the last ten years fixing it. that would be two tiny "plug-n-play" transistors from radio shack. which, again, i was able to get on talkshopbot and ask for help when something wasn't right and quickly got a detailed explanation of what i needed to be back up and running. to add to this, my shopbot is stored in a tent, near the end. so it often is rained on. and i don't even care. because it's indestructible.
it's a myth that the shopbot is buggy. they have been around for so long, maybe there are some new bugs in the new machines? i can't speak to that. but if someone was to buy a ten year old shopbot for any small amount of money (you can pick them up for $4k in great condition), that cnc will do nothing but go straight to work the day you plug it in. and continue to work costing basically nothing to service for decades.
as for the shopbot, mine has been crazy solid. i think i've spent all off $5 in the last ten years fixing it. that would be two tiny "plug-n-play" transistors from radio shack. which, again, i was able to get on talkshopbot and ask for help when something wasn't right and quickly got a detailed explanation of what i needed to be back up and running. to add to this, my shopbot is stored in a tent, near the end. so it often is rained on. and i don't even care. because it's indestructible.
it's a myth that the shopbot is buggy. they have been around for so long, maybe there are some new bugs in the new machines? i can't speak to that. but if someone was to buy a ten year old shopbot for any small amount of money (you can pick them up for $4k in great condition), that cnc will do nothing but go straight to work the day you plug it in. and continue to work costing basically nothing to service for decades.
Westcoast Sign Guy
New Member
We've had a Shopbot for years, the PRT Alpha with columbo 3 HP spindle (220v) and mainly use it for electric sign production working mainly aluminum and lot's of acrylic. We've never had an issue, glitch or problem.
Flimsy? Working with a lot of aluminum, haven't experienced that.
Bolt together yes, but you can weld it together if you so choose. Something I wish I would have done, but again it's solid for what we do in electric sign production.
I actually have trailer jacks on each leg to I can crank it up and move it around, that's pretty handy! My table is from 2005 I believe, the newer models there is less to put together which is nice.
Sure a bigger heavier (heavier the better) is nicer if you have the money, but for what we do, the Shopbot has the potential/ability to do so much more.
One regret, we bought the 4'x8', go bigger if you have the room (5 x 12)! That's always been the biggest regret from anyone buying a table.
Flimsy? Working with a lot of aluminum, haven't experienced that.
Bolt together yes, but you can weld it together if you so choose. Something I wish I would have done, but again it's solid for what we do in electric sign production.
I actually have trailer jacks on each leg to I can crank it up and move it around, that's pretty handy! My table is from 2005 I believe, the newer models there is less to put together which is nice.
Sure a bigger heavier (heavier the better) is nicer if you have the money, but for what we do, the Shopbot has the potential/ability to do so much more.
One regret, we bought the 4'x8', go bigger if you have the room (5 x 12)! That's always been the biggest regret from anyone buying a table.
Nicholedene
New Member
Thank You!
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
honesttjohn
New Member
With at 38" x 50" bed and pretty simplistic I went with a Probotix Nebula. $6k delivered completely assembled with the air cooled spindle, Linux loaded computer, 8 bits, Cut 2D to practice with (Vectric gives you $150 towards Aspire 8). Set it up, home it, and start cutting. Plus, they are in Illinois and a phone call away with any questions. You can upgrade to a bigger machine later if you think you need it.
My local sign guy says it's cheaper to farm his CNC work out rather than buy the machine, materials, space, and time. He's a vinyl expert and concentrates on that. I get to work in my basement whenever he's got something my ability level can handle.
HJ
Learning
My local sign guy says it's cheaper to farm his CNC work out rather than buy the machine, materials, space, and time. He's a vinyl expert and concentrates on that. I get to work in my basement whenever he's got something my ability level can handle.
HJ
Learning
Techman
New Member
Good for hobby shops..
Not so good for a commercial shop/..
Way too slow.
And limited to the materials you can cut.
There are dozen new machines coming out in the 6 grand range..
They are good enough for some But, Very limited on speed and power and what nots. If it takes my machine 45 mins doing a job one of those low budget machines 2 hours. You get what you pay for and that is all you get.
Techman
New Member
Dislike? From Parrot? Are you a company Rep?
Sorry you feel that way. ,,
.. But,,, These low cost barely capable machines is just another example of the race to the bottom. Some person with a few bucks will get reeled in and watch his job take 2 days of babysitting. Then more hours of hand work will create great disappointment..
$6 grand for this level is a pretty high cost for what it does. Speed comes from depth of cut. This machine will not handle deep cuts without some problem.
One can build a machine with 5 times the speed and strength for less. 3/4 inch aluminum plates with steel runners and #2 bearings will get good depth of cut without chatter at a much higher speed.
Or, one can get a good old Shopbot for just a little more and be much happier.
Running a cnc machine in the basement? Good luck with that. The dust created by a cnc machines is incredibly fine and will infiltrate the house. Will it be good to run toxic materials create fine dust and let it float around the house. This is not like running a vinyl cutter. This is not running a sewing machine.
It takes at least 3 HP to cut hard woods with speed efficiency. No way the spindle on this machine is 3 HP. No way will it handle deep cuts.
And finally. There is nothing worse than a weak limp Z axis. The square tubing will flex. That is a fact. Flex means inaccurate cuts.
Sorry you feel that way. ,,
.. But,,, These low cost barely capable machines is just another example of the race to the bottom. Some person with a few bucks will get reeled in and watch his job take 2 days of babysitting. Then more hours of hand work will create great disappointment..
$6 grand for this level is a pretty high cost for what it does. Speed comes from depth of cut. This machine will not handle deep cuts without some problem.
One can build a machine with 5 times the speed and strength for less. 3/4 inch aluminum plates with steel runners and #2 bearings will get good depth of cut without chatter at a much higher speed.
Or, one can get a good old Shopbot for just a little more and be much happier.
Running a cnc machine in the basement? Good luck with that. The dust created by a cnc machines is incredibly fine and will infiltrate the house. Will it be good to run toxic materials create fine dust and let it float around the house. This is not like running a vinyl cutter. This is not running a sewing machine.
It takes at least 3 HP to cut hard woods with speed efficiency. No way the spindle on this machine is 3 HP. No way will it handle deep cuts.
And finally. There is nothing worse than a weak limp Z axis. The square tubing will flex. That is a fact. Flex means inaccurate cuts.
Jester1167
Premium Subscriber
Lots of good points in this thread.
Know your market, what you're good at, and where your headed.
The first router I used was an older Multicam. It had about a 54" square table with T bar slots. It was a great router the company bought to make ADA signs using Edgerton Braille and we ended up using it for everything under the sun. It served it purpose well and the business grew around it. After about 12 years they bought a new Multicam 3000 with 4x8 table and a vacuum hold down table. It was then that we all realized how much less efficient the old router was. Not only were we producing faster but the edge quality was better and the bits lasted longer. We could cut 4x8 sheets without manual tiling, where there was always a potential for error and waste.
If you plan on buying any tool, make sure your skills and market can support it, then buy the best tool you can safely afford and make sure you get training and good support.
Some things we learned along the way;
Larger heavier routers are consistently flatter over distance, the weight dampens vibration giving you better edge quality, longer lasting bits, and faster cut speeds.
Get the right vacuum hold down for the job. Multicam had 3 options. Pressure vs air flow.
Our bits of choice were Onsrud single fluted spiral O's for almost everything(been a while but that's how I remember it)
Milling both sides of your MDF spoil board helps the hold down and stays flatter when the humidity changes (The outer skin is denser because of the way it is produced)
You can make a lot of money off a router if you can keep it busy...
A router adds another dimension to your work and can set you apart from your competition.
If you gouge the other sign companies for router work and they are ambitious they'll eventually buy their own and compete with you. If they continually send bad files and are no better than your retail clients they get charged retail.
Know your market, what you're good at, and where your headed.
The first router I used was an older Multicam. It had about a 54" square table with T bar slots. It was a great router the company bought to make ADA signs using Edgerton Braille and we ended up using it for everything under the sun. It served it purpose well and the business grew around it. After about 12 years they bought a new Multicam 3000 with 4x8 table and a vacuum hold down table. It was then that we all realized how much less efficient the old router was. Not only were we producing faster but the edge quality was better and the bits lasted longer. We could cut 4x8 sheets without manual tiling, where there was always a potential for error and waste.
If you plan on buying any tool, make sure your skills and market can support it, then buy the best tool you can safely afford and make sure you get training and good support.
Some things we learned along the way;
Larger heavier routers are consistently flatter over distance, the weight dampens vibration giving you better edge quality, longer lasting bits, and faster cut speeds.
Get the right vacuum hold down for the job. Multicam had 3 options. Pressure vs air flow.
Our bits of choice were Onsrud single fluted spiral O's for almost everything(been a while but that's how I remember it)
Milling both sides of your MDF spoil board helps the hold down and stays flatter when the humidity changes (The outer skin is denser because of the way it is produced)
You can make a lot of money off a router if you can keep it busy...
A router adds another dimension to your work and can set you apart from your competition.
If you gouge the other sign companies for router work and they are ambitious they'll eventually buy their own and compete with you. If they continually send bad files and are no better than your retail clients they get charged retail.
synergy_jim
New Member
Multicam hands down. My story is too long to type, but if you want to chat sometime I'll give you the lowdown.
I have owned and operated 5 different CNC's in my life. My 3000 series is as good as machines 3X the price.
I also have a well kept 1000 series for sale if you are interested.
I have owned and operated 5 different CNC's in my life. My 3000 series is as good as machines 3X the price.
I also have a well kept 1000 series for sale if you are interested.
Jester1167
Premium Subscriber
You can also get the router only and add other features as you need them.
Mister for cutting aluminum.
Floating head for ADA or positive depth control.
You can route without a vacuum hold down as long a production is low and add it when things pick up. Instead, counter sink some holes in a spoil board and screw it to the router then glue another one on top then mill it flat. We used PVC as a spoil board. Secure your substrate by pre-masking the back and use 3M spay glue to mount it to the table. The hair on your arms and legs will hate you for not buying a vacuum hold down after using spray glue.
Never used a tool changer but I imagine you can't add a tool changer to just any motor.
Mister for cutting aluminum.
Floating head for ADA or positive depth control.
You can route without a vacuum hold down as long a production is low and add it when things pick up. Instead, counter sink some holes in a spoil board and screw it to the router then glue another one on top then mill it flat. We used PVC as a spoil board. Secure your substrate by pre-masking the back and use 3M spay glue to mount it to the table. The hair on your arms and legs will hate you for not buying a vacuum hold down after using spray glue.
Never used a tool changer but I imagine you can't add a tool changer to just any motor.
honesttjohn
New Member
Not to get into a "pi**ing" contest with anybody, cause I'm new here and don't know the ropes on this site yet. I sold my trucking company, retired, and bought my Nebula for something to play with. Granted, this is a whole new world for me. I'm not competing with anybody out here. I do a lot of the stuff nobody else likes to touch, simply, because timewise, I can. I looked real serious at the Shobbot, and it was my first choice. But for the costs and support I've received so far, I don't regret going with Probotix. My choice, my money. If the need warrants a little later, there's always the option to go bigger and heavier. But I really don't miss unrealistic demands, receivables, schedules, sales people, and most of all - employees. I cut when I want and if I want. And my basement works just fine for what I do. Don't need another office and shop to go to. If something presents itself later on, I'll deal with it then.
All I did was offer an opinion and state what I had done.
HJ
Having a little fun now.
All I did was offer an opinion and state what I had done.
HJ
Having a little fun now.
Techman
New Member
I posted my critique of that machine from the point of this board is frequented by and for professionals using professional level equipment. That is the context.. Comparing an entry level hobby machine with an entry level professional machine is not logical.
That CNC machine is not a professional use machine. It is a fine product for what it does as a casual use machine. But it will never compete in the professional world to make a living.
A couple dozen sets of 6 inch rosettes carved at 300 inches/ min will be done in a day. Doing that same set on a machine to runs at 80 inches a minute would take 3 days. No one can make a living at the speed in cnc world.
Nothing more should be read into what i posted. For some that cnc is perfect.
That CNC machine is not a professional use machine. It is a fine product for what it does as a casual use machine. But it will never compete in the professional world to make a living.
A couple dozen sets of 6 inch rosettes carved at 300 inches/ min will be done in a day. Doing that same set on a machine to runs at 80 inches a minute would take 3 days. No one can make a living at the speed in cnc world.
Nothing more should be read into what i posted. For some that cnc is perfect.