Contract regarding PHYSICAL Printed Proofs?

[splizaat]

Hey Guys-
We, somehow, in 11 years of business, got ourselves into a pickle with our largest customer and it couldn't have been a WORSE order to have gone wrong. In my opinion, and everyone that has been involved with this project, we did everything the exact same way we would with EVERY project of this scale to protect ourselves, down to providing digital AND physical printed proof of the final product.

The customer signed off on a physical print out of the final product and didn't notice the orientation on the backside of the double sided print being the wrong direction, so when the final order worth $4500 showed up and the orientation was off - they magically lost the physical proof they signed off on, and blamed us. Of course our output files show exactly how the orientation was on the passed proof and we were correct.

In order to keep peace, we offered a reprint...but this time we're starting all the way at the beginning. And this time, we're providing a contract that says that when they pass off on the physical proof, they have inspected EVERYTHING for accuracy and passed quality check and can expect the final order to show up this exact same way. We are then going to get the signed paper AND signed proof back to hold onto.

MY question is, does ANYONE here have a contract they send with physical proofs that need to be signed off on? In 11 years of business, I've never had someone pass off on a physical proof, then come back and say their signature and the physical proof meant nothing.

 

[GaSouthpaw]

Do you not have their signature on a physical copy of the sample?
I mean, sending a sample to the customer for them to okay is good- but sending two and insisting they send one back with a signature is ideal.
My .02, anyway.

 

[splizaat]

Do you not have their signature on a physical copy of the sample?
I mean, sending a sample to the customer for them to okay is good- but sending two and insisting they send one back with a signature is ideal.
My .02, anyway.

That's absolutely the way we usually do it. We just have been in an absolute rush lately and of course very expensive learning lesson - even though we proved it and customer admitted they overlooked the orientation when we proved them wrong.

Typically we keep one set here, send one set to customer, and have them sign and send it back to us to hold onto so it can't go missing.

Customer in this case admitted approving sample that was wrong, but still insists it's not their fault....So I'm looking for a contract to send with the sample this second time around.

 

[Jester1167]

There are instances that I can think of where you are at fault no matter what.

You're the expert and you should know how to make a two sided coro sign with an arrow to one location. Both sides should point, as an example, North. If you print the same file on both sides one will point North and the other South. - I can't believe it but I had a customer tell me both sides were pointing the wrong direction, me, turn the sign around 180 degrees (here's your sign ID 10 T).

Another example is Stouse fold over posters. You print one right side up and one upside down with the tops butted together on the score line.

Or, you typeset the copy and misspell a word. Are you really going to make your customer eat any or all of the costs for your mistake? I don't care if they signed off on your mistake, own it. If they provide you with the copy and you don't catch their mistake that is a different story. For a good customer I would redo it at a discount.

We all make mistakes, but why would you have them sign off on something and then let them keep it?

 

[Gino]

Who/what or how changed the orientation of the wrong background ?? Even with a signed off authorization, if you changed their original, it's hard to say you changed it and they didn't notice it. That's a tough one. Black & white is your only excuse. However, it's not nice to trick someone if it was honestly your mistake.

 

[splizaat]

The original was a flat mockup of two sides labeled side 1, side 2. No directional arrow, so technically if you flip the sign upside down as opposed to left or right, we're correct. Without anything besides the label "side1" and "side2" there is not enough information to be sure. The physical proof is an INTERPRETATION of the digital mockup, and it's up to the customer to see if we have interpreted the mockup properly. At that point, since the customer is the only one who truly knows what it's supposed to be, we would expect the customer to pay attention to ANY and ALL details of the physical proof....

This isn't a question about who was right or wrong. The customer was wrong - and we still offered the reprint. My question is, does anyone here use a contract to present WITH physical proofs?

 

[GaSouthpaw]

Tough call there.
The shops I've worked in generally do have it spelled out that, once approval is given, the customer is 100% responsible for layout errors (arrows, directions, spelling). That's usually the "out."
Of course, you also have to consider whether it's worth bickering with the customer about. You know- is there a chance they'll see it your way, or will they say "screw you, we'll never buy from you again"?
It's the proverbial slippery slope, unless you are firm in the stance that "you guys signed off- not our fault."

 

[splizaat]

Let me also clarify that this is a customer who subs print jobs on a regular daily basis to other shops, and us on a regular basis so this isn't their first time approving proofs. They played dumb this time when they were wrong....then purposely lost the proof they approved in an effort to save it.

Again this isn't a post to figure out who's right or wrong. I'm trying to figure out if anyone has a contract they use (and willing to send) to me to use for approval on proofs from this point forward. It may not be 100% insurance, but at least people will understand the seriousness of one week's worth the work with a crew of 7 people when a silly mistake like this is made and we offer to reprint because of their mistake.

 

[Jester1167]

That sucks, I strongly dislike people without honor like that. I hope you can tack on a few $s to make it up in the next 3 months.

Might try LegalZoom for the really good legalese.

 

[StarSign]

I am curious if anyone at your shop during production said, "this doesn't look right". We encourage all of our employees to question everything. 25 sets of eyes are better then 2. We all know the customer doesn't really look at the proofs and the response is always "your the sign guys, you know better then me".

 

[splizaat]

I am curious if anyone at your shop during production said, "this doesn't look right". We encourage all of our employees to question everything. 25 sets of eyes are better then 2. We all know the customer doesn't really look at the proofs and the response is always "your the sign guys, you know better then me".

This isn't something that is UPSIDE DOWN when printed 180 degrees. The lettering on the sign reads sideways. So flipped 180, it would still read sideways, just one side up, one side down - but the bottom of the lettering facing outside away from the wall. In this case, the customer wanted one side to read toward the wall, and one side to read toward open space... There's no "obvious" in this situation, but I appreciate your two.

And in this case the customer IS also a sign shop....

 

[Jester1167]

This isn't something that is UPSIDE DOWN when printed 180 degrees. The lettering on the sign reads sideways. So flipped 180, it would still read sideways, just one side up, one side down - but the bottom of the lettering facing outside away from the wall. In this case, the customer wanted one side to read toward the wall, and one side to read toward open space... There's no "obvious" in this situation, but I appreciate your two.

And in this case the customer IS also a sign shop....

WOW, I would be so mad at the other sign shop. It would be tough not to charge them, or take them to court and sever the relationship. They should have known better and taken care of all those details. Of course I wouldn't say that publicly until I evaluated the revenue that they brought in. I would also want to have a heart to heart with the owner of the other company before I moved forward. From your description of the situation, their practices were shady and all a contract would do is make the court case somewhat easier.

I would defiantly include a clause in the contract that says if a dispute can't be resolved between the parties and the judicial system becomes necessary, the loser pays all lawyer fees, court costs and lost wages associated with the claim. I don't know what kind of compensation is legal in your state but threatening the maximum creates the incentive not let it get that far.

 

[Jean Shimp]

We never supply physical proofs. Everything is via email so we have a paper trail on our end. That being said we still get times where the customer signs off by mistake. If it's a minor mistake and a good customer I split the cost.

 

[2B]

We supply a physical proof ONLY if the customer is paying for it. most of the proofs we do are digital.
Even if a physical proof is purchased it is also sent via E-mail so there is always a trail proving when/what/how it was done

regardless of how the proof is sent, all require confirmation and acceptance of the following

By approving the attached file(s) you are approving the spelling, wording, punctuation, arrangement, color and compliancy of the design mock-up/ product proof.
After the mock-up/ product proof are approved, any errors found will be quickly and willingly corrected, but the correction will be at your expense if production has already started.

NOTE: Once approved XXXXXX is not responsible for ANY errors with spelling, wording, punctuation, arrangement, color and compliancy of the design mock-up/ product proof.

in regards to this situation

• You are a vendor and it is up to the company providing the files to ensure that they are "PRINT READY"
  • We have a very detailed list of what is required of "PRINT READY" files from our resale customers and when we get one in we pre-flight it and if they do not meet the criteria it is rejected and the customer has to send another file.
• Its on them and they are responsible for the loss of hours / material on THEIR dime.

 

[Andy D]

There are instances that I can think of where you are at fault no matter what.
You're the expert and you should know how to make a two sided coro sign with an arrow to one location. Both sides should point, as an example, North. If you print the same file on both sides one will point North and the other South. - I can't believe it but I had a customer tell me both sides were pointing the wrong direction, me, turn the sign around 180 degrees (here's your sign ID 10 T).

I guess I'll be the odd man out... Even if it's your fault, like a misspelled word or they asked for a yellow background and you made it blue.. if
that's how it is in the proof and they sign off on it... tough, that's the reason we go through the proofing process. There needs to be a strongly worded
disclaimer " I understand by approving this proof, I am responsible for any errors, even if the errors are made by ***** signs, including, but not limited to, misspellings, wrong size, wrong color...blah blah..."
I know when I sub stuff out I need to be d@mn sure everything is correct, or it's on me.

All that being said, I do make exceptions all the time especially for good customers.

 

[jfiscus]

On any large print order for a new client ($5-10k or more) we do physical color proofs before we begin production. We print off 2 copies of the proof and have them approve one, we keep the other and post it on the wall in the production area for reference. Then if anyone notices color issues (the most likely problem to happen) or other issues we can stop it right there. All jobs here travel with paperwork showing the final product (laser print) through production so if someone grabs a job to work on they know what it is supposed to finish looking like.

 

[rossmosh]

There are instances that I can think of where you are at fault no matter what.

You're the expert and you should know how to make a two sided coro sign with an arrow to one location. Both sides should point, as an example, North. If you print the same file on both sides one will point North and the other South. - I can't believe it but I had a customer tell me both sides were pointing the wrong direction, me, turn the sign around 180 degrees (here's your sign ID 10 T).

Another example is Stouse fold over posters. You print one right side up and one upside down with the tops butted together on the score line.

Or, you typeset the copy and misspell a word. Are you really going to make your customer eat any or all of the costs for your mistake? I don't care if they signed off on your mistake, own it. If they provide you with the copy and you don't catch their mistake that is a different story. For a good customer I would redo it at a discount.

We all make mistakes, but why would you have them sign off on something and then let them keep it?

What's the point of sending a proof and telling a customer they're responsible and then not holding them responsible? Everyone in the world makes mistakes. Big shops. Small shops. Smart people. Dumb people. Seasons pro's. Newbies. The reality is, the whole point of sending a proof is to cover EVERYONE. When you tell someone specifically to look over something VERY carefully and verify everything is right and tell them there is costs involved in fixing any mistakes, how isn't the customer held accountable?

 

[2B]

On any large print order for a new client ($5-10k or more) we do physical color proofs before we begin production. We print off 2 copies of the proof and have them approve one, we keep the other and post it on the wall in the production area for reference. Then if anyone notices color issues (the most likely problem to happen) or other issues we can stop it right there. All jobs here travel with paperwork showing the final product (laser print) through production so if someone grabs a job to work on they know what it is supposed to finish looking like.

yup, this has saved us on several projects on the and well worth the piece of paper(s) and ink.

 

[Jester1167]

What's the point of sending a proof and telling a customer they're responsible and then not holding them responsible? Everyone in the world makes mistakes. Big shops. Small shops. Smart people. Dumb people. Seasons pro's. Newbies. The reality is, the whole point of sending a proof is to cover EVERYONE. When you tell someone specifically to look over something VERY carefully and verify everything is right and tell them there is costs involved in fixing any mistakes, how isn't the customer held accountable?

There were a couple of points in the statement highlighted, but if your talking about holding your customer responsible for catching your typesetting mistakes, that seems a little crazy to me. That's like your mechanic making you look over the brake job he just did and sign off on it. Then you crash backing out of the parking space because you couldn't stop. "You signed off on it so it's not my fault." says the mechanic. Just listen to the statement " you made the mistake and your customer didn't catch it." In the first place at least one other person in your shop should have looked over the proof before it was sent to the client. It is embarrassing to send proofs with mistakes.

The other part is if a customer makes a mistake I don't feel like I need to kick them when they are down. They pay the full amount for the first one and I discount some of the profit on the corrected run. If I charge them the full amount both times I have probably lost a customer. If I discount the reprint, I run the chance of saving that employees job and gained a loyal customer. There's also a chance in the future to make up the loss.

Never tell a customer you will reprint it at cost, just discount it. If you sell them the first a full price and then sell the reprint "at cost" They will subtract the two and get the wrong impression about your profit margin.

That doesn't mean that I didn't cover myself in the past and get approval on digital proofs, and sign offs on color proofs. The customer needs to understand the gravity of signing off on a proof.

Your call.

 

[Andy D]

That's like your mechanic making you look over the brake job he just did and sign off on it. Then you crash backing out of the parking space because you couldn't stop. "You signed off on it so it's not my fault." says the mechanic. Just listen to the statement " you made the mistake and your customer didn't catch it." In the first place at least one other person in your shop should have looked over the proof before it was sent to the client. It is embarrassing to send proofs with mistakes.

I understand what you're saying, and I will redo a sign free of charge or discount 80% of the time if it's our fault.

Not to beat a dead horse.. but your analogy of the brake job isn't right, if our sign fell apart or didn't light up,
we would fix it, that's a guarantee of workmanship. A better analogy is if the mechanic writes up a quote for all of the repairs the vehicle needs &
after signing off on the repairs and picking up the vehicle, the customer doesn't want to pay for some of them because they didn't read over the quote.
Estimates and proofs are a type of contract, and anytime someone signs off on them, they're saying I have read, understand, and verify that everything is correct.

There are just too many ways a proof can have mistakes besides misspelled words, the wrong color assigned, missing information, wrong phone number, wrong font, etc.
When someone signs off on something, they should be sure of what they're signing.