Copyright release questions..

[JoshLoring]

So.. to start I would like to get your opinions on customers wanting your artwork.
Example:
Let's say you did design work for a brochure or vehicle wrap which included custom created drawings, characters etc as part of a full package.
You get paid. You print it, the client is happy.

Week goes by, client wants business cards.
You get paid. You print it, the client is happy.

Week goes by, client wants a yellow page ad designed.
You quote them, they are pissed because in their minds you should take time out of your day to do it for free since they hired you for other jobs.

They say give me my artwork and I'll have another shop do it.
You say it's not yours.

They say, I'll buy it.

What is it worth to you to provide all of your files to the client do do as they please and release copyright? Keep in mind after that your services will be done.

 

[zmatalucci]

how much time do you have invested?

 

[trakers]

I hold an unpopular opinion on this hot potato subject.

Here's how I see it:

1) Customer comes to us for a sign.
2) We design the artwork and charge them for our design time. AFAIC *they* own that artwork. They paid for us to create it so they own it, period.

I just don't see how it could be any other way. That is why I get so worked up when I see a local photographer threatening to sue an 18 y/o kid for posting a scan of her Senior photo on her Facebook page.

The photog was paid for his service so AFAIC she owns that image of herself.

Again, I know I am the minority here, and I've tried to look at it from all angles, but if someone pays someone else to create something, they should own it.
.

 

[JoshLoring]

It was a package deal and our logo was placed in exchange for a discount.

Easily over 20 hours worth of artwork illustration, photos and design.

 

[BigfishDM]

It was a package deal and our logo was placed in exchange for a discount.

Easily over 20 hours worth of artwork illustration, photos and design.

yeah right, you tell them to get the hell outta your office!!

 

[ProWraps]

did you tell them upfront they wouldnt own the artwork? thats the real question. i find that what you say and implement in the begining dictates what you are expected to do in the end.

 

[speedmedia]

In many cases when designing custom art I give them a full rights price and a limited rights price. The full rights price gets them the art on disc that they can take and do whatever they want with it a limited rights is being able to reuse the art for pretty much anything they want while it is done by us and the art stays with us.

Thanks,
Kurt

 

[JoshLoring]

did you tell them upfront they wouldnt own the artwork? thats the real question. i find that what you say and implement in the begining dictates what you are expected to do in the end.

Yes I did. It's funny though because people think it takes 2 mins to take something designed for another media and "plop" it in a different design layout.

In many cases when designing custom art I give them a full rights price and a limited rights price. The full rights price gets them the art on disc that they can take and do whatever they want with it a limited rights is being able to reuse the art for pretty much anything they want while it is done by us and the art stays with us.

Thanks,
Kurt

I like that Kurt. I think that is the best Idea I have heard. Mind If I steal it? haha

 

[javila]

When it gets to the point when they start demanding things because they "gave me work" I usually tell them I waived art fees in order for a chance at their work.

I've actually started putting art fees with a "waived" price next to the the disclaimer that art is our property until paid for.

 

[zmatalucci]

I like kurts approach as well!

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Our clients own the artwork we create for them - whether its a brochure, or logo, or web site. It's in all our contracts. They want to go somewhere else later, they are free to. We might charge a nominal fee to burn a disk, etc but it's theirs. If they need art converted, however, to some other format we charge hourly.

I've found it puts them at ease - especially if they've previously ever dealt with scenario Josh is detailing. Maybe because we don't design anything 'to get the job' - I look it at it - well you paid my hourly rate or whatever price is determined for the job - you own the art.

I have done a few 'limited use' logo restriction contracts - but they basically deal with unlimited rights and usage for an initial location, with a subsequent fixed fee assigned to an additional stores or locations that open down the road. Alternatively, we would offer an unrestricted usage price for higher fee. 95% of our logo work falls into an unrestricted use category.

 

[JoshLoring]

Thanks guys. Great stuff

 

[zmatalucci]

yeah, you definitely got some good info on this post

 

[copythat]

Cya

When we provide the bills to the clients, it stipulates on the bll that an adjusted creative service will apply! This way everyone is alerted of any questons that involves using artwork again.

We store that information in on our system. It sort of like a P.O. Box where you pay a monthly fee. So shouldn't you charge for accessing the information. Time is money period!!! Have a sign in your place or your bills saying that you charge for designing, but artwork still is your creation. I have yet to have one complaint in two years here. JMO

T

 

[rcook99]

TRAKERS
I hold an unpopular opinion on this hot potato subject.

Here's how I see it:

1) Customer comes to us for a sign.
2) We design the artwork and charge them for our design time. AFAIC *they* own that artwork. They paid for us to create it so they own it, period.

I just don't see how it could be any other way. That is why I get so worked up when I see a local photographer threatening to sue an 18 y/o kid for posting a scan of her Senior photo on her Facebook page.

The photog was paid for his service so AFAIC she owns that image of herself.

Again, I know I am the minority here, and I've tried to look at it from all angles, but if someone pays someone else to create something, they should own it.
.

I am with you on this one...If the customer paid me for my time to design there work then the customer owns the artwork. As Dan stated if it needs to be changed to another format we will charge a fee for the time it takes.

 

[iSign]

first, I agree with ProWraps, what any client is led to believe at the start, has everything to do with what is appropriate at the end,

second I agree with all who have noted that there is a lot of good advice on this thread.

There are a number of other threads like this over the years... maybe not worth searching for, but Trackers says he is in the minority, presumably because he has read several of them too...

I have been stuck in the middle on this issue, because I believe ProWraps is correct that a complete understanding of artwork ownership limitations needs to exist IN ADVANCE, if there will be any limitations imposed after the fact...

...and I have been too wishy-washy about how exactly to set my "terms" and when or where to communicate those terms.

The result is for me that I do not have terms warning clients of limitations on their future use of design work I do for them, BUT, at the same time I often do extra work to make a layout nice, for a client who only ordered a sign & not a "design"... Take magnetic signs for example.. if someone wants "SHUTTLE VAN" in black on white, I might sell a pair of doors as cheap as $125. If they have a disc with full color properly formatted artwork, I might charge $175 for the same pair of mags...

...BUT, if they want Aloha Shuttle Vans, & they don't have (or want) a "logo", however they ask if I can make a warm gradient background color, maybe an outline on the lettering & "throw a palm tree on there".. I might say $250 & assume I will invest 45 minutes on design work, at $100/hour.

Here is where I get stuck, sometimes I get mediocre results for my 45 minutes. Sometimes I'm too busy to care, because my "mediocre" is often more than expected for the clients who "don't want a logo" or who want me to "throw a palm in there" ...but other times, I might be working late, phone's not ringing, I'm having fun... and mediocre isn't good enough for me, so I "give" away another 45 minutes because I have an idea now, & I figure it is practice at my craft to see when & how I can turn my ideas into accomplishments with my design software... so I spend the time, get the results, I had fun & the magnets look great. Everyone's happy!

If a client wants a $175 sign, but suddenly they want a bunch of corners rounded, holes drilled, frames spray painted... whatever... I might charge $75 more for an extra 45 minutes of labor. They agree to the $75 labor charge, I invest the time (this could run over 45 minutes too... we have to guess sometimes) ...but when it's done, they get the sign, I get the $250... end of story...

..but now the magnet guy comes back, his story didn't end.. he wants "his" artwork, because his brother in law bought a cricut...

That's where I get stuck!
ohhhh... damn... we just had a massive data crash yesterday. bummer!

 

[cptcorn]

They say, I'll buy it.

What is it worth to you to provide all of your files to the client do do as they please and release copyright? Keep in mind after that your services will be done.

It's worth what ever you feel is fair... high or low that is your price... Which ever makes you sleep well at night...

I hold an unpopular opinion on this hot potato subject.

Here's how I see it:

1) Customer comes to us for a sign.
2) We design the artwork and charge them for our design time. AFAIC *they* own that artwork. They paid for us to create it so they own it, period.

I just don't see how it could be any other way. That is why I get so worked up when I see a local photographer threatening to sue an 18 y/o kid for posting a scan of her Senior photo on her Facebook page.

The photog was paid for his service so AFAIC she owns that image of herself.

Again, I know I am the minority here, and I've tried to look at it from all angles, but if someone pays someone else to create something, they should own it.
.

This would not hold up in court... The artwork is instantly copyrighted to you when you create it according to the law. You need to sign a release to the company if they want to obtain legal ownership ownership.

When a software company is hired to write a program the company does not own that program. It's essentially a license.

This works the same way with artwork. You need to establish from the beginning the boundaries of usage or have it written somewhere on your work orders.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

trakers just food for thought i wonder how you would feel about this if you were hired to design a sign for a small company and they in turn used that sign design as their logo and turned into a national brand. this happened to me and it made me much more cautious going forward in my career, we all should be compensated fairly for our work and if the client uses that image beyond the scope of work we all originally agreed upon we deserve to be compensated.

the client was 2 brothers that were brewing beer in their dorm room and wanted a banner for a beer bash. they went on to use the layout of that banner for all of their corporate signage, every label they printed, clothing, trucks, website, print ads, etc...no one had any idea they would ever become what they have become.

i would have felt differently if i would have charged them for unlimited use, etc. but i worked up a 3X8 banner they approved it i made it, they never would have even considered purchasing a logo or the rights to said logo..so it is a hard pill for me to swallow that just because i design a sign for someone they own the rights to that design and can use it in other formats it simply does not work that way, in fact i often dig up old projects and use parts of old designs for new layouts.

after the client educated themselves about the subject i was given a cash settlement to avoid a trip to the courthouse to settle the matter...however, if i would have been educated on the topic and had my paperwork in order i would literally be receiving multiple LARGE checks annually.

have these discussions with your clients before it is a concern. put your agreements in writing and if you choose to give away your work well that's your business...but it doesnt make much sense to me.

 

[Gino]

In my early years.... logos weren't a big part of my or most any other sign shops forte. We were always asked to letter something or paint a mural.... and copy it from a letterhead or from a napkin. When that stuff wasn't available, we would just do a thumbnail and go from there. I can’t tell you how many truck doors, banners or signs were designed…. with only coming up with a good layout that mattered. Later, these layouts would become some company’s logos and we were flattered that our artwork or lettering job was good enough for this application. Suddenly, when computers came onto the scene and everyone started their own little ad agencies…. things started changing and people wanted more elaborate logos and customer’s seemed to lose their sense of imagination and had to see everything in full detail before they would decide. Well, these agencies started charging out the ying yang for this stuff and we didn’t get squat for it. Once we got on board with computers and design software, we too started charging for this stuff. The difference is…. when we design [meaning sign people and not ad novices]…. we generally charged far less then these agencies and the customer didn’t think they were getting quality.

We now have a starting retainer fee which is non-fundable and we provide a CD with artwork in various formats as well as B&W slicks and color separations. This then belongs to the customer and they can go wherever they like afterwards. Most of the time they stay put with us and feel safe because we gained their trust and guarantee them discounts on future work.. We still have customers that have been with us almost 25 years.

I too believe you need to be right up front about how this design/logo stuff must play out. In my opinion…. it’s deceitful to do all the work and when they are dissatisfied for some reason with you or your company to pull a sneaky trick and tell them they NOW have to purchase their artwork. If I was the customer…. I’d either floor you or bad mouth you for not being forthright to start.

We’ve had some people leave us over the years for whatever reason and if they want their artwork…. I know it’s been paid for all along or in the beginning. If not, that’s on me for not doing my job for OUR business and I take the hit and just hand it over. I think I took a hit on only a few occasions, but I can’t remember who at the moment, so I guess it ‘s not a big thing.

Recently, we had a customer wander in and get prices and we struck up a deal. They he proceeded to give me drawings and some artwork and it was clear that they didn’t make it. Some of the artwork said who the other sign company was. I also knew the people at the other shop, so I asked him if they had the rights to it and he said… well, we paid for it, so I guess it’s ours. I asked what they paid and he said $200. I asked if he minded if I call the other sign shop and he got a little hot under the collar and I explained, if I’m copying someone else’s artwork that hasn’t been paid for directly and you haven’t got written authorization to prove it… I have to turn the job down. He said…. Fine, just do new artwork and I’ll pay you to do it. I asked ‘Cash, Charge or Check’ ??

 

[Dan Antonelli]

trakers just food for thought i wonder how you would feel about this if you were hired to design a sign for a small company and they in turn used that sign design as their logo and turned into a national brand. this happened to me and it made me much more cautious going forward in my career, we all should be compensated fairly for our work and if the client uses that image beyond the scope of work we all originally agreed upon we deserve to be compensated.

the client was 2 brothers that were brewing beer in their dorm room and wanted a banner for a beer bash. they went on to use the layout of that banner for all of their corporate signage, every label they printed, clothing, trucks, website, print ads, etc...no one had any idea they would ever become what they have become.

i would have felt differently if i would have charged them for unlimited use, etc. but i worked up a 3X8 banner they approved it i made it, they never would have even considered purchasing a logo or the rights to said logo..so it is a hard pill for me to swallow that just because i design a sign for someone they own the rights to that design and can use it in other formats it simply does not work that way, in fact i often dig up old projects and use parts of old designs for new layouts.

after the client educated themselves about the subject i was given a cash settlement to avoid a trip to the courthouse to settle the matter...however, if i would have been educated on the topic and had my paperwork in order i would literally be receiving multiple LARGE checks annually.

have these discussions with your clients before it is a concern. put your agreements in writing and if you choose to give away your work well that's your business...but it doesnt make much sense to me.

Yeh, very interesting story. Been down that road, but like I posted earlier, we rarely do rights restricted logo design.

There's a logo I did a while back. It was done for a 2 person company at the time involved in, lets just say, a consumer based product. Now that company is 60 employees, with big endorsements, and lets just say, very famous people, using the product - all with my logo.

They are not Nike like the old Nike logo story goes - but perhaps, are on their way in a similar vain to becoming much bigger. I got $200 to develop the brand (this goes back 11 years ago).

They were recently featured in a news story. So am I bummed for only getting $200 bucks? Sure. Am I proud to have created this brand, which is becoming pretty famous. Yeh.

It's a fine line. For the most part, I base the pricing in terms of annual sales for the company, with two options. Under $1m, and over $1m.

You never know how big the company who's logo you create today will be tomorrow.