dfbuchanan
New Member
Does anyone know how long you have to wait before you can laminate material after printing with eco solvent?
I am printing from a OCE 9090.
Thanks
I am printing from a OCE 9090.
Thanks
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Curing or "degassing" before lamination
- Thread starter dfbuchanan
- Start date
J Hill Designs
New Member
I usually give it a day
J Hill Designs
New Member
yeah. search outgassing
petepaz
New Member
we use roland ecosol ink
and i have waited as little as 1/2 hour with no problem
if we have heavier ink coverage i wait an hour and also no problems
just make sure you use a comparable lamination so the shrinkage doesn’t
cause any problems
in a perfect world 24 hours is the best but some times
the customers can’t wait that long
and i have waited as little as 1/2 hour with no problem
if we have heavier ink coverage i wait an hour and also no problems
just make sure you use a comparable lamination so the shrinkage doesn’t
cause any problems
in a perfect world 24 hours is the best but some times
the customers can’t wait that long
Jester1167
Premium Subscriber
Print a large chunk of black (52" x 52" or bigger), cut it in half. Laminate one right out of the machine and let the other set 24 hours before laminating. Try installing both pieces and let us know how each piece reacts.
1. Which is more aggressive and harder to install?
2. Which one stretches and deforms easily?
3. Do the edges curl in as soon as you remove the liner?
4. Cut an "X" in both samples and let them set out in the sun. Is there a difference in the shrinkage in the "X" after a few days? weeks?
Another extreme test is to open an old cartridge and put a couple of drops of ink on a chunk of vinyl and see what happens in an hour. This test shows on an extreme scale what the solvents are doing to the vinyl and adhesive. Solvents can and do affect how the vinyl behaves during install and can reduce the long term bond of the adhesive.
Manufactures recommend that you let solvent based inks outgas for 24 hours. The amount of outgas time can be reduced by adding heat and airflow. You can find manufactures spec's in on their websites.
We outgas vehicle wrap prints for the full 24 hours. There are situations where we only wait a couple of hours and all those situations are flat short term installs.
I suggest you use the tests above, manufactures recommendations, and the varied responses on this site, and form an educated opinion.
1. Which is more aggressive and harder to install?
2. Which one stretches and deforms easily?
3. Do the edges curl in as soon as you remove the liner?
4. Cut an "X" in both samples and let them set out in the sun. Is there a difference in the shrinkage in the "X" after a few days? weeks?
Another extreme test is to open an old cartridge and put a couple of drops of ink on a chunk of vinyl and see what happens in an hour. This test shows on an extreme scale what the solvents are doing to the vinyl and adhesive. Solvents can and do affect how the vinyl behaves during install and can reduce the long term bond of the adhesive.
Manufactures recommend that you let solvent based inks outgas for 24 hours. The amount of outgas time can be reduced by adding heat and airflow. You can find manufactures spec's in on their websites.
We outgas vehicle wrap prints for the full 24 hours. There are situations where we only wait a couple of hours and all those situations are flat short term installs.
I suggest you use the tests above, manufactures recommendations, and the varied responses on this site, and form an educated opinion.
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Vinyl is gas permeable. Including laminates. That's why the odd bubble will heal itself over time. If a print really does 'outgas' it can do so right through the laminate as well as out the other side.
There is no real evidence that 'outgassing' is not some mythical event of the sort used to scare small children into going to sleep.
There is no real evidence that 'outgassing' is not some mythical event of the sort used to scare small children into going to sleep.
ProWraps
New Member
spoken like someone that installs digitally printed vinyl once a year (and unfortunately gives bad advice on forums based on crotchety theory and inexperience).
we install MILES of it a year.
let your prints out-gas. standard among the believers as well as the manufacturers is 24-48 hours.
the installation will be an entirely different animal if you don't (and not a good animal).
as far as what it will do to the vinyl afterwards, well, ill let the conspiracy theorists continue to poke fun at that.
ignorance is bliss.
GAC05
Quit buggin' me
I don't think so.
I spent the night in a small hotel room with about 100 solvent printed, unlaminated posters that had been shipped sealed inside plastic bags. There was no time to air dry them before shipping - out of the printer - trimmed - then slip sheeted, rolled onto cores & bagged.
Room was closed up with a split AC that just recycled the air without exchange from outside the room.
The mythical fumes coming off them was enough to cause a headache and some concern that the smell might have triggered a raid from the DEA over a possible meth lab setup.
Anecdotal evidence at best but good enough for me to know that it has to take some time for the residual solvent to evaporate off a print.
What effect that solvent has is up for debate but not it's existence in my opinion.
wayne k
guam usa
Techman
New Member
STill,, I will never believe there is enuf slovent emitted per teh surfce area to cause bubbles. I'm believe all that printed matter you had in the room released enuf vapors to make you feel. It also show that the plastic is not air tight. As is aluminum foil is not air tight.
Edserv
New Member
We've been advised to wait for 24 hours to zero. We've recently had great experience with zero. Of the jobs we've done in the past 8 months, with zero wait time (overlaminating immediately,) we've not had any problems so far.... but that's only with 8 months of doing it this way. We do guarantee our work, so if there's a problem, we'll correct it.
Good luck.
Chris
Good luck.
Chris
I've found that outgassing isnt really an issue for simple jobs, ie. flat panel signs, however when the time comes to wrap something the difference between an outgassed print and one straight from the printer is huge. In the few instances where we've had to laminate instantly I haven't noticed a change in the longevity of the print, just a **#@ to apply.
I dont think it is absolutely critical to the job, however i believe you are making life difficult in not outgassing.
I dont think it is absolutely critical to the job, however i believe you are making life difficult in not outgassing.
signmeup
New Member
"Outgassing" sounds more impressive than "the solvent evaporates". The solvents in the ink evaporate from the surface of the print. If you laminate the print before the solvents have fully evaporated, the solvents simply pass through the laminate the same way application fluid does.....through osmosis and then they evaporate. The solvents will presumabley dissipate faster if you delay lamination.
Rooster
New Member
When I sheet lam a sign face sometimes I'll cut the laminate and then let the vinyl and the laminate sit on the table overnight to get any curl out of it if it's from the end of a roll.
In the morning I can see a ghost image of the print in the laminate release liner from where the print was outgassing. I also see the same thing in longer banner runs when you unroll the banners from the take up reel. You can see how the banner material has stretched from the ink.
The ink solvents DO soften the vinyl and weaken the adhesive bond. This is not a myth.
In the morning I can see a ghost image of the print in the laminate release liner from where the print was outgassing. I also see the same thing in longer banner runs when you unroll the banners from the take up reel. You can see how the banner material has stretched from the ink.
The ink solvents DO soften the vinyl and weaken the adhesive bond. This is not a myth.
luggnut
New Member
outgassing on ecosol prints does sound like it would be a myth considering the small amount of ink used, but still a curing time should be observed.
most paints take a while to properly cure even after they are dry to the touch. so even if if there is no "outgassing" the ink probably isn't cured.
have you ever let to unlaminated prints touch each other within 24 hrs of being printed... they will stick together and ruin, but with a long drying time (i think 48hrs plus) they don't.
most paints take a while to properly cure even after they are dry to the touch. so even if if there is no "outgassing" the ink probably isn't cured.
have you ever let to unlaminated prints touch each other within 24 hrs of being printed... they will stick together and ruin, but with a long drying time (i think 48hrs plus) they don't.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I've gotten to the point who cares what it's called...... outgassing, evaporation, drying, curing or just plain poppycock.... what's in a word ??
We try to wait at least 24 hours. Whether we're applying it to a vehicle on compound curves or a flat substrate..... it's what the manufacturer requires. Why do so many of you want to go against what is required and try to re-invent the wheel ??
Nothing.... nothing at all is completely dried, cured or finished outgassing in 24 hours, so with that being said.... I too believe this is all BS on the manufacturer's part, but it's the rules, so we have to obey them. To not go by the recommended instructions... you're only creating a possible screw up, but one you will be responsible for in the end.
Before vinyl and computers were around.... the word 'Outgassing' was given to lexan, acrylics and other plastic faces for electric signs. Outgassing was explained as the polymers or something migrating to the surface. However, they continue to migrate for days, months and even years..... in fact near the life of the substrate. To combat this phenomenon you were to rub a dampened rag across the face and it removed all of the solvents/outgasses which actually sat on the top side of the face. Outgassing only traveled in one direction and could not be turned around. Once you rubbed it off, you could apply your friscket or paint and do your thing. You had a window of a few hours before you needed to wipe it again. Once your paint was applied... the process stopped. However, when vinyl came along and translucents were applied to the faces and more and more plastics and PVC's started showing up for possible sign substrates... the term changed and it was the culprit for making bubbles appear in the vinyl. What a load of hogwash. If you wiped it down first... the vinyl went down beautifully. No bubbles ever appeared. That was 'application failure' [ a term later becoming A V E R Y 's tag line].... in it's fullest.
Now the term surfaces again meaning something different yet again. You do what you want, but whether you wait an hour, a day, or three weeks... it all depends on how well you handle yourself within your trade. I'm done being told something, just to hear someone else make totally different claims with scientific proof for this crap.
It's very simple..... you apply solvent inks to a solvent media and you've created a molecular change in the materials. You do the math. You've actually changed something and don't have a clue. Does it matter ?? Probably not.
How many of you know how to put gas in your car, maybe even oil, steer it and park it, yet don't have the smallest inkling how the engine runs and the mechanics behind it ?? You drive around and do all kinds of things with your car, but you have no qualms with what makes it run. So...... why do you have to know how this vinyl solvent stuff works if you don't want to follow the rules ??
We try to wait at least 24 hours. Whether we're applying it to a vehicle on compound curves or a flat substrate..... it's what the manufacturer requires. Why do so many of you want to go against what is required and try to re-invent the wheel ??
Nothing.... nothing at all is completely dried, cured or finished outgassing in 24 hours, so with that being said.... I too believe this is all BS on the manufacturer's part, but it's the rules, so we have to obey them. To not go by the recommended instructions... you're only creating a possible screw up, but one you will be responsible for in the end.
Before vinyl and computers were around.... the word 'Outgassing' was given to lexan, acrylics and other plastic faces for electric signs. Outgassing was explained as the polymers or something migrating to the surface. However, they continue to migrate for days, months and even years..... in fact near the life of the substrate. To combat this phenomenon you were to rub a dampened rag across the face and it removed all of the solvents/outgasses which actually sat on the top side of the face. Outgassing only traveled in one direction and could not be turned around. Once you rubbed it off, you could apply your friscket or paint and do your thing. You had a window of a few hours before you needed to wipe it again. Once your paint was applied... the process stopped. However, when vinyl came along and translucents were applied to the faces and more and more plastics and PVC's started showing up for possible sign substrates... the term changed and it was the culprit for making bubbles appear in the vinyl. What a load of hogwash. If you wiped it down first... the vinyl went down beautifully. No bubbles ever appeared. That was 'application failure' [ a term later becoming A V E R Y 's tag line].... in it's fullest.
Now the term surfaces again meaning something different yet again. You do what you want, but whether you wait an hour, a day, or three weeks... it all depends on how well you handle yourself within your trade. I'm done being told something, just to hear someone else make totally different claims with scientific proof for this crap.
It's very simple..... you apply solvent inks to a solvent media and you've created a molecular change in the materials. You do the math. You've actually changed something and don't have a clue. Does it matter ?? Probably not.How many of you know how to put gas in your car, maybe even oil, steer it and park it, yet don't have the smallest inkling how the engine runs and the mechanics behind it ?? You drive around and do all kinds of things with your car, but you have no qualms with what makes it run. So...... why do you have to know how this vinyl solvent stuff works if you don't want to follow the rules ??
signmeup
New Member
The term "outgassing" implies that there is a gas inside the vinyl. There is not. There is a solvent that will evaporate if it is exposed to an environment that contains less solvent than the vinyl. When a liquid evaporates it changes from a liquid to a gas. The correct term should be "outsolvent" or "outliquid"......or we could just call it drying...... 
I would do what the manufacturer recommends.
FWIW I get prints from a guy who laminates them with water. I've never had a problem with them. He laminates them right off the printer.....while they're still warm.
See ya on the 22nd!
I would do what the manufacturer recommends.
FWIW I get prints from a guy who laminates them with water. I've never had a problem with them. He laminates them right off the printer.....while they're still warm.
See ya on the 22nd!