Did I make any money?

[Mikeifg]

It's the same thing I run into all the time. A guy out of his garage (Not All). Who stickers up his go kart and decides to letter a truck door for 20.00 when the material he bought to do it costs 23-50 cheap Avery crap. And then we get these customers later and say custom door logos produced and installed 150.00 and they freak....Just pisses you off to no end.

 

[signage]

I think his original post was a way of saying that anyone charging $39/set of mags needs their head examined.
I am not one for discussing actual pricing in the open forum but I will say that even the first set of mags I ever made in 1985 was $50 and that was 25 years ago.
People need to realize that what we are doing is selling advertising to the business.
Someone will pay $600/month for a cruddy YP ad but balk at spending $$ on a set of mags. We need to teach these prospective clients just how valuable our services are.
And also steer them away from magnetics into something more upscale if we can.
Love....Jill

 

[PGSigns]

The post was to help all the new folks we have popped in here that look solely at the cost of materials and the selling price and come up with the $10 materials plus $29 profit from that selling price. I picked that number because I thought it fit with the above math and look good to someone not looking at the big picture. I had to add some kind of money for a wage to get them to think of it that way and to not forget about taxes and what goes along with paying someone a wage. I was hoping some of the crop of new guys would try this and maybe I could of stated this better as an exercise in why things need to cost a certain amount to survive in the long run. I think we need to have more of these types of discussions in the open about how to develop strong pricing skills and business skills in general to make the newguys better at what it trully cost to do this and it will help us all if we can keep them from driving the prices down any further. They do this all the time in Sign Craft with the projects they come up with and it is a great section on how to price many types of jobs. A lot of the information posted is very good and it should help out and we should keep it going.
Jimmy

 

[PGSigns]

Forgot to add this for the newguys that do try and work this problem.

Profit is the difference between the income of the business and all its costs/expenses. It is normally measured over a period of time.

A business that does not make a profit will fail, potentially affecting employees, suppliers and the local community


It needs to be remembered that profits are used to reinvest, which leads to better products for their customers, better wages and working conditions for their workers or to help the local community.
Jimmy

 

[Gino]

I do believe we have a glossary of terms here at 101 and most of this stuff can be researched there.

If there is need for a glossary of terms or a dictionary... possibly we could get a committee together and come up with an area of this concern and point newbies in that direction rather than making them feel stupid too fast.

This is sort of like the thread someone else has going about people bitching and griping about people in their way. Kinda sounds like we wanna hang these people before we even know what they're about.

 

[luggnut]

another thing i believe is that we all could get more for our stuff... one by being better designers and craftsmen but the other by being better businessmen. i know i could get more for my sign and graphic work but the thing holding me back right now is me... i don't network in the community, i don't have great salesman skills, i am a real wuss when it comes to pricing,

... so that leaves me out of the loop on some of the jobs given to others that are more involved networking.. maybe i am 20 times the signman as the next guy but "they" know the other sign guy and share some common community interest. he gets the job.

maybe i'm the best photoshop designer , but i can't sell the cutomer on the value that my superior skill provides... i make the same money as any other lesser designer. what i'm saying is there are so many questions on the forum about how to cut, print , design, but not many on how do i make money. the prices can be gotten , the only question is can they be gotten by YOU.

 

[Patrick46]

I'd like to add that I've spent over 30 years learning how to do this job...(how to do quality layouts & designing, learning how to actually make these magnetics, learning to work with paint, vinyl, and other substrates, run my sign software)...
I've spent over $25,000.00 to purchase the machines to cut and produce these signs, that I need to recompensate myself for...much less the actual costs of the materials.

 

[SignManiac]

Educating the consumer is a necessary given if you want to get more for your work. I try to never give a quote over the phone and insists the client come and see me at my shop. Once they see my operation, they soon realize this isn't a mom and pop setup in the spare kids room to make some pocket change to help with their SS retirement check.

Once they have a look around at the equipment and the wall I have dedicated as a gallery of real life examples, they soon put price aside.

 

[OneUpTenn]

You guys can bash me for this all you want, but I sell my 12 x 24 mags for $39.95 all day long. That is my biggest "loss leader" . I can attribute at least 5 of my really good repeat customers to this. I know that all of my prices are competitive but not cheap. I do work out of my home but I do not use this as a basis to be "cheaper" than anyone else.

Looking back through my past invoices, I can only account for TWO customers who ONLY bought the mags. (You cant win em all. )

So if takes the $39.95 to draw them in then so be it. I do not feel like I am "losing" money on these. I am certainly not making a killing off of them but for what it brings me in repeat business it is so worth it.

On another note, around here you couldnt get more than $59.95 for them anyway. And that is stretching it.

 

[J Hill Designs]

damn. single set of custom mags here would be $85-90

 

[SignManiac]

And what's wrong with getting $200 for a pair of mags if you can get it? You would be surprised at how many people will spend money on good signs and if you can show them the difference between the $39.99 pair.

 

[luggnut]

Educating the consumer is a necessary given if you want to get more for your work. I try to never give a quote over the phone and insists the client come and see me at my shop. Once they see my operation, they soon realize this isn't a mom and pop setup in the spare kids room to make some pocket change to help with their SS retirement check.

Once they have a look around at the equipment and the wall I have dedicated as a gallery of real life examples, they soon put price aside

this is true.. mcdonalds and outback and ruth chris steakhouse all sell hamburgers .. basicly the same.. but some get a lot more money. atmoshpere and presentation and service is the biggest difference.

 

[OldPaint]

you can relate THIS POST, back to the SQ FOOT PRICING. to establish A BASIC START POINT FOR SALE.
1'x2'= 2 s.f. X 2= 4 sq ft. X $10 sq ft so thats a $40 st of magnets. an hour of time, not worth it.
now for small stuff less the 20 sq. ft. iam more inclined to DOUBLE $10 S.F. to $20 s.f. because of time/material to work in smaller scale.
now 4 sq ft @ $20 s.f. is $80..................STILL A RESPECTABLE PRICE..for service rendered.
if its a simple helvetica, 1 color..maybe i would let em go for $70 a set. but most times i UP-SELL.....artwork on mags. to $100-150.00
now if it take you an HOUR...........it is WORTH YOUR TIME.
i have never sold a set of mags..........FOR $39.99........................since i been at this...AND I WONT!!!!
and i always INCLUDE MY 5/50 WARRANTY*
*5 minutes or 50 M.P.H WHICH EVER COMES 1ST!!!!!!!!!!
most newbies have no idea of VALUE PRICING..........they usually go by what SOMEONE, TELLS THEM.
and with all the lowballers, i can understand why NEWBIES UNDER PRICE SIGNS.

 

[Bigdawg]

Loss leader or not... and not meant to bash at all... but that loss leader brings the market price down. Then the guy down the street sells his banner for $39.95 as his loss leader and there goes that price... then another guy decides coro signs can be his loss leader - $10 each so that price drops out...

It hurts the market... which is why we aren't a price-based shop. We are very honest in telling people that we will not be the cheapest, but when all these "loss leaders" become the market price - well that just sucks for those that have to compete on a price only basis. A good reason to compete based on quality and design instead.

 

[Gino]

Could be Bigdawg, but I still see it as a loss leader., not something to hurt the market.... at least not in our shop. If your standards are high, than it isn't hurting anybody or anything.

Allow me to explain something that I thought I mentioned , but I guess didn't make sense to too many.

A wham-bam-than-you-ma'am magnetic is what we get up to $155. When people call in on the phone, I tell them up front.... anywhere from $135 up to $155 or you can go crazy and get a set for $200, $300 and $400 if you so choose. Most people aren't looking for $40 crap in our place. I don't think I've ever sold them that cheap in 35 years. If someone gets a pair at $125 to $155, I'm totally satisfied and so are they. I consider a set at $155 a loss leader, not $40. That's just totally insane.

It all depends where your price brackets begin that makes it lowballing in the industry, not what your shop in used to producing. Heck, our shop minimum is $85. and I'm seriously thinking of raising that.

Impulsive loss leaders is hard to swallow, but giving someone a perfect set of magnetics that are colorful, pleasing to the eye and affordable and you make a good buck on it.... well like everything else, what I can get and consider loss leader is not what you or someone else might consider it.

We still beat most shops out on quality, service and turnaround, but not always price. So because I call it such, does not mean it upsets the apple cart. You should be referring to $40 a pair hacks and meaningless pricing skills as hacks.... and not lumping all of us into that category.

I'm might be a hack in some things, but signs isn't one of them.

And now I must be off. I have a 7pm date with Mr ...... ta-ta......​

 

[CES020]

All of us could be setting a goal to run a bizz that will gross around $500 bux an hour. That's 20k a month. That is my goal.

Your goal should be to get a calculator. $500 "bux" an hour is $4,000 a day, $20,000 a week, or $86,666. per month, not 20k a month. Good luck with that, let me know how it works out for you

 

[OldPaint]

GINO........you are an ESTABLISHED SHOP.
the newbie.......startin out........gets his prices from the LOWBALLERS..... who want him to do his signs for less, then bebop down the street.....lost leader to one shop,might be, but it still drags the PRECEIVED VALUE DOWN FOR ALL.

 

[Techman]

your goal should be to get a calculator. $500 "bux" an hour is $4,000 a day, $20,000 a week, or $86,666. Per month, not 20k a month. Good luck with that, let me know how it works out for you

ooppps!1

 

[jiarby]

I get $99/set or I don't do them.

"Hey... I see you just paid $1.25 for that 20oz Mt. Dew. The material cost for that is about 6 cents. They make millions of them. This is a completely custom one-off product made for just YOU for 1/100th the markup of that Pepsi"

"Yes, the materials for this job may cost $10... But an hour of my time is worth $xx. PLUS I have to buy 50yd rolls of magnetic & vinyl. Your $40 job cost me $300 up front to be able to make. Plus the computer, software, plotter, blades, transfer tape, rent. In fact at $40 I am really not making much profit at all"

We have a DIY sign kit... A coro blank with a Sharpie taped to it. $5

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Back in 1975 till mid 80s ..$ 200 was a fair to low price for a pair of magnetics or to letter the doors It was a good starting point $600 was not unheard of at all

Along came Gerber 4 then 4b also about that time everybody else starting in with cutters
10 yrs later print hit the pavement 3M no longer had a hold on it

What I don't understand is mechanics got air tools ... prices didn't change ..they just got done faster

Sign making dropped like a rock in water and you can buy cheaper retail then wholesale