Does your artwork fee mean you hand ownership to customer?

[Joe Diaz]

Here are a few scenarios of how it could work at our shop (Obviously I didn't put our actual prices, imagine your own pricing instead.)

Scenario 1 (customer just wants sign(s) produced, they DO NOT want to purchase the designs):
Sign ($9) + Another Sign ($9) + Another Sign ($9) = Total ($27 for three signs)

Scenario 2 (customer wants signs(s) and artwork on a disk):
Design first ($5) + Sign ($8 <- price of sign reduced since design was already purchased) + Another Sign ($8) + Another Sign ($8) = Total ($29 for three signs and ownership of the artwork)

Scenario 3 (customer wants signs(s) and later decides they need the artwork on a disk):
Sign ($9) + Another Sign ($9) + Design ($5) + Another Sign ($8 <- price of sign reduced since design was already purchased) = Total ($31 for three signs and ownership of the artwork)

 

[petepaz]

we generally charge $50-75 prep/set up for jobs (mostly this is on the silk screened and hot stamped jobs not so much on the digital stuff)
but if the customer wants artwork he can use somewhere else and we are creating from scratch we will charge $200-250 (if it is a good or repeat customer we will just give it to them because they are usually using it for another form of printing that we do not do)

 

[signswi]

Even if you hand someone the production files it doesn't mean the rights have actually transfered. In order to transfer rights it needs to be in writing to that end.

 

[Heis3335]

I only wish i could get paid an hourly rate to design something for a customer, but retain the rights to it here in small town America. I can see both sides of the debate, but I look at it like this. If a contractor designed and built an apartment building for you, and you paid him his normal hourly rate, he would in no way be able to keep the rights to the design/construction of the building, and be able to retain any additional income from it. I know this may seem like comparing apples and oranges to some, but is it really? The contractor has a certain skill set, should he be able to retain the rights to the building he just built? You can live it it rent free for the rest of your life, because you paid him to build it, but you are not allowed to generate any income from his labor? I am not trying to offend anyone, but I do see both sides of the coin.
Rob

 

[Marlene]

but retain the rights to it here in small town America

we have only 660,000 in the whole state and can do it.

a design is a product of it's own. it can be sold without making anything from it but the actual design itself.

if a customer purchases a design to make a sign, it is to make a sign, plain and simple and is sold as such.

if a customer wants to take that design and have other things made from it, then it is something that should be sold as the intent of it has changed.

just because it says the customer's name in the design does not make it their property to do with as they please until they pay for the right to a design created by the designer.

 

[signswi]

I only wish i could get paid an hourly rate to design something for a customer, but retain the rights to it here in small town America. I can see both sides of the debate, but I look at it like this. If a contractor designed and built an apartment building for you, and you paid him his normal hourly rate, he would in no way be able to keep the rights to the design/construction of the building, and be able to retain any additional income from it. I know this may seem like comparing apples and oranges to some, but is it really? The contractor has a certain skill set, should he be able to retain the rights to the building he just built? You can live it it rent free for the rest of your life, because you paid him to build it, but you are not allowed to generate any income from his labor? I am not trying to offend anyone, but I do see both sides of the coin.
Rob

He retains the rights to his architectural drawings/designs and could sell them for profit if he wanted to, whereas you could not unless you were transfered the rights as part of the contract (to guarantee that no one else ends up with a copy of your building down the line). Point invalidated, rights transfer is still a consideration.

Any time intellectual property is created the creator retains ownership unless a transfer occurs or it meets the qualifications of work-for-hire (aka as an employee, you create a design on company time, the company owns it not you -- this doesn't apply by default to someone externally hiring you to design something). In work-for-hire the hiring party (the company) is credited as the creator and therefore owner of the IP.

 

[Billct2]

You can give away whatever you want but that doesn't change the law.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Thanks everyone - some good information here A lot of stuff to think about. I already have a "general conditions of sale" form which I attach to all quotes and invoices - so the customer knows from the quote point about our conditions. This is one point, which doesn't exist on there. It definitely deserves its own 'section'. Should also be included in the conditions of my credit account application me thinks.

Should be at least a one liner that says something along the lines of where ownership of a file lies "unless specified in writing". What do you say?

 

[Custom_Grafx]

In addition, has anyone else here used adobe acrobat security features (such as password lock for editing, locking full res print or all together etc) on files you've sent your clients for "viewing only"?

Is this something that can be easily hacked into if someone is savvy? If i'm not mistaken, I think it's a 128bit encryption on acrobat - and that's pretty hard to hack i think... ?

 

[jiarby]

adobe acrobat security features

please!... Acrobat security is a joke.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

lol... that easy huh?

 

[HaroldDesign]

Sell them what they want at a price you are willing to do it for.
Shades of gray take on color in being competitive, and finding the color that sparks potential clients and yourself gets tough. It's as cut & dried as you want it to be, unless there is more profit for you in a more complicated business model. In that case, a good controller will lend the hand it's paid for. Don't forget to consider yourself in wages if that person is yourself.

 

[fresh]

This is what we write:
S* Signs shall retain all copyrights on artwork created by S* Signs (including custom logos) until specific licenses are granted for additional uses.

last year we had a guy come in looking for signs for his business, my partner started working on the job before we had even quoted it or gotten a deposit. The client was annoying and after he came in for the 3rd time we got some money from him. We finished the design and he asked for it on a disk so he could get teeshirts made... And then took the vinyl-ready vector files to another sign shop to get his signs made. We haven't made that mistake again.

 

[binki]

not really a black and white answer but we look at it like this.

if the customer brings in artwork and we do not charge a separate art fee then all files used in prep to print belong to us for our internal use. the end result, be it shirts or banners or paper, was what the customer was after, not artwork.

if the customer states up front he wants art files then we charge accordingly.

on most occasions the customer has no artwork or only has some low res something or just a bus card or picture of his logo. the files we create belong to us for our use in producing his products. we will give one half size 150dpi jpg as a proof and that is it.

we had two run-ins in the last couple of months over this so we are formalizing our art policy for anyone that may be a repeat customer.

 

[Locals Find!]

Would it not be easier on everyone to simply change the wording on your invoices as far as artwork goes.

I use "Artwork Setup Fee" for any artwork I get from a client or otherwise that I am using strictly for that job. They don't get copies. If I use the artwork on another job they are purchasing from me. I charge again depending on the time involved.

If they want artwork itself. I put on my invoices "Artwork Design Fee" then they get a copy and I transfer the rights.

 

[Techman]

I open adobe locked PDF files as much as I change my sox.
It is so easy that I am surprised anyone even bothers to lock them.
Often they need to be unlocked for editing because of some typo which happens at every turn...

 

[Mosh]

If you charge a design fee, then it is theirs....if not if it is on thier sign...IT IS THEIRS!!!!Good luck, you need to charge for artwork up-front or just give it away! Don't even worry about it now, it is thier design, nothing you can do. Go ahead and waste your time in small claims court, it will be a waste of time, trust me. Been there, sued that!
Even it you get a judgment, what then, more legal fees to get it enforced!!!!

Let artwork leave your shop, it is as good as gone, and will cost more to get back than you will want to mess with!!!!!

 

[ProWraps]

im so tired of this question. if you are commissioned as an ARTIST to design ART for someone, THEY OWN IT.

why else would they hire you? WTF are they paying you for? good god people. stop trying to reap extra revenue by pissing off your client for something they paid you for.

flame away.

 

[binki]

hmmm, if they pay for a finished product then the artwork isn't theirs unless stated. if they come in with nothing and want artwork then it is theirs as part of the product. the fuzzy line is when they come in with artwork and it needs a little love to get it onto the medium they want. we don't give out embroidery files any more than we give out any other kinds of files unless that is part of the deal up front.

as far as collecting on a judgement it is relatively simple. file with the court for a statement of assets and when they don't show they are held in contempt of court and arrested. if they show up the judge orders the assets be seized and sold.

 

[Techman]

what gets me is.. that every single artist in the world except sign artists keeps control of their art.

Why would we do that and give away our work for a handful of silver.. Most artists let you use their images for a specific use. They retain control over the copyrights. Even Fred lets you use his art but retains sole control and ownership.

I think its not in our best interest to give our work away for the price of a sign. Why not? Every other enterprise retains control.

Even a marketing program is not owned by the company that is the client of the ad agency. Doesn't matter if the agency uses the clients logo's or not. That program is the intellectual property of the ad agency. We are no different. We are marketers. We make a visual marketing piece. Its an artifact. Why hand it over for free?