Employees Are The Worst

[ams]

Now I see why so many sign shops stay small and have little to no employees. I've had the worst luck of employees. I've had 12 - 14 employees totally, currently have 4 not including myself.

They screw up nearly every job, they aren't friendly, they don't care about their work, they have no sense of quality control, they want a paycheck but don't want to work, they want to go home early, if I give them written warnings it continues to go downhill or they get upset, etc.

Last year I was so fed up, I tried to sell my company to get away from it. But if I went on a firing spree, it would only hurt me because we are sitting on 20+ work orders right now, 5 of which are large jobs (over $2,000) so I have to keep up with supply and demand.

There is also really poor resumes coming in all the time. My employees have lost me so much money and having to redo jobs that I am 3 1/2 months behind in rent, over $19,000 on the company credit card, my total debt is $33,000. I've been cutting everyones hours back by 10 hours a week, this week will be 18 hours cut and they seem to be happy and don't mind it.

How do you guys handle it? Do you have great employees? if so how did you get them?

 

[GaSouthpaw]

As an employee who's been "in charge", as well as a business owner (though not a sign shop), I've seen this and I understand your aggravation.
People seem to think you owe them something. You do and don't- if that makes sense.
You owe them their agreed wage if they perform the agreed duties to the agreed levels of performance. For them to do less is bullshit, though.

There are good employees- I just think a lot of them are older and more experienced, which has led them to care about the quality of their work. I can say that personally I don't think- in the past 20 years or so- had a boss get nearly as upset with a mistake I made as I got myself (no comment on my attitude throughout my 20s). I pride myself on being able to do my job at a high level. Am I perfect? No. But I'm confident believing I manage to get the job right 95% of the time- and probably 2% of the leftover occurs when I don't get proper information. The other 3% is usually something stupid I forgot to do, but I own up to my errors.

As for the where to look- I would suggest staying far away from Craigslist (it has its uses, but for finding employees? Nope) and trying more professional outlets like LinkedIn or Monster or the like. Another good potential base is your local vocational/tech school. Their graphic design students might provide a good sign designer, their drafting program a good CNC operator, welding a good fabricator, etc.

At the same time, make sure you're an employer that people actually want to work for (please note I am not accusing you of any of this- I'm just saying from an employee's perspective that these things are irritating as hell):
- Don't scream at them. Ever. It doesn't matter how angry they've made you or how bad they've screwed up. (I walked out on an employer who wouldn't stop screaming at me because I asked a question regarding work scheduling that they didn't like- despite my voice remaining dead level and calm as I asked them not to.)
If they are the ones screaming, calmly ask them to stop. If they refuse, calmly tell them to remove themselves from the building- as they are no longer employed.
- If you have to discipline an employee, do it in private- not in front of everyone.
- If they do something good/beneficial/etc., praise them. It's amazing what a morale boost it is for the boss to say "man, that was a really good idea you had to do XXX on that project".
- If they approach you with an idea, listen to it and give it actual consideration.
- Don't say "because I'm the boss and I said so." That may be true, but it's belittling.
- I completely understand cutting hours to save money. That's tough to recover from. A previous employer did that, too- but it was applied very unfairly, only to production staff, and not to office workers who sat on their asses all day and brought in no revenue (I'm not talking about salespeople, I'm talking secretarial and management who wouldn't have been able to produce a paid job if someone had stuck a gun to their head).
- Be fair.
- Have your policies in writing regarding attendance, tardiness, job performance, etc. And stick to it. Employers who have a policy that says something like "coming in late XXX times in XXX days will result in a suspension of XX" and then allow employees to "slide" on it are going to be taken advantage of.
- Follow through. Whether it's holding reviews, buying them lunch, letting them knock off early on a Friday, or whatever- if you promise something, fulfill that promise. From an employee standpoint, it is maddening for an employer to tell me they're going to do something and then they don't.

Best of luck to you.

 

[JJGraphics]

The problem may not be the idea of "employees", so much as the quality of the people you're getting.

How do you get people? Online job site like indeed?? Craigslist? Referrals? If online, could you paste us the text of one of your listings?

Perhaps it would help you to dig up their old resumes and make up a chart in excel with columns like this:

Employee #
Length of employment
Age
Industry Experience (months)
# of previous jobs in last 5 years.
Terms of leaving (Quit/terminated)
Average hours worked per week
Hourly pay
How I rate their work ethic (1-5)
How I rate their ability to learn from mistakes (1-5)
How I rate their attitude (1-5)

Look for patterns:
People with certain # of jobs in last 5 years only lasted a certain length of time.
People making $____ lasted longer than others

The answers are in the data, and it may come back to you not asking the right questions when interviewing, or selecting the right people. To an extent, people will work for a little lower pay if they love what they do and where they do it. Also, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Perhaps some positive reinforcement may go a long way to improving their work ethic and morale? Yours too?

I once interviewed someone and asked them: "What appeals to you about this job?" His shotgun response was "nothing." He quickly added a few more things that were positive, but I should have known right then and there that he wouldn't work out. Fast forward 2 months after hiring and he resigned at a fairly inconvenient time.

I just listened to an interesting book on Audible called "The Great Game of Business" by Jack Stack. The general concept is: "open up the financial books to all your staff and let them see how things are going. Give them a stake in the game and see how they respond to it."

I balance it against the idea from the book "Good to Great" of "You have to get the right people on the bus, and the wrong people off the bus as quickly as possible."

 

[CanuckSigns]

That sucks, I've had my fair share of bad employees in the past, but our current batch are really good and add quite a bit of value to the business and have allowed us to take on jobs we previously wouldn't.

 

[GAC05]

They screw up nearly every job, they aren't friendly, they don't care about their work, they have no sense of quality control, they want a paycheck but don't want to work, they want to go home early, if I give them written warnings it continues to go downhill or they get upset, etc.

Well, at least now i know where my guys went when they stopped showing up for work here.....
My three most experienced production/installer guys are gone since January,
Not one of them had the nads to give me 2 weeks notice or even tell me face to face, just email.
Trying to find new people to train up while we are the most busy we have ever been is a real treat.
My only job requirement is "Can you show up at 8 and stay until 5 at least 4 or 5 days a week."

Hope you get your crew issues worked out.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[ikarasu]

I'll give you an "Employees" perspective.

Are you offering a fair wage? If you're only offering minimum wage... The same goes for employees as it does in the sign world, you get what you pay for.

My current company has 20 or so people. There's a few of us making $20 an hour, and we're the ones who bust our asses off. The guys who take a 5 minute break every hour? The'yre making $13-14 an hour. They're also the ones who require a lot of checking in on / supervision... while a few of us are handed what needs to be done, and we don't even see the boss until the end of the day.

A lot of them sit around doing nothing most of the day, and say "this is how much work my 10 cent raise gets you". I got $1.50 raise this year - They don't seem to realize it's proportionate to how much work you do / how valuable you are.

The extra pay is what keeps the good employees around. It means I'm not going to jump ship when another sign company offers me a higher wage (Which has happened). I'm not saying start everyone off at $20 an hour... just if you do find a good employee, let him know you appreciate it. Give him a raise, give him a bonus.. incentives to stay around, otherwise he may leave for a better offer. Not only will this make that employee happy... but all the others who are making peanuts compared to him, will start working their asses off for a raise also.

I'm not saying you're a bad owner, it just sounds like your money is tight, so maybe you're offering wage is bringing in the lazy people / people who can't get better jobs because of their work ethics. You may want to up the wages, and get valuable people. I make $6-7 more than some employees... but I do literally, not even joking, 2-3x the work they do. Sometimes it makes sense to pay for a better quality employee. One who actually cares about the quality of work they're doing.

My last job was in shipping / receiving. I was a lead hand, and I had a part in the hiring process. We'd get 300 resumes every time we hired, which allowed us to be picky. we tailored the questions to what they like about the job... asked what they know about our company, etc. a GOOD employee will research the company they're applying for. That means they're looking for a "Career", not just a job to get by - Have a stricter hiring process, be picky, and you may find a good employee. Of course all of this is dependent on you getting lots of resumes...

A good employee can make a company, and bad ones can break it. If your employees are producing sub-par work, and costing you money... let them go. Hire new ones,

If you only have 20 work orders, 5 of which are over 2K, and you're 30k in debt, it may be time to let your employees go, and become small again. Don't take on anymore jobs until these are done. Otherwise you'll just be digging yourself into more debt. Even if you have 30k worth of jobs on the table - Material cost + employee cost would still keep you in debt.... It might be time to do some re-structuring.

 

[ams]

As an employee who's been "in charge", as well as a business owner (though not a sign shop), I've seen this and I understand your aggravation.
People seem to think you owe them something. You do and don't- if that makes sense.
You owe them their agreed wage if they perform the agreed duties to the agreed levels of performance. For them to do less is bull****, though.

There are good employees- I just think a lot of them are older and more experienced, which has led them to care about the quality of their work. I can say that personally I don't think- in the past 20 years or so- had a boss get nearly as upset with a mistake I made as I got myself (no comment on my attitude throughout my 20s). I pride myself on being able to do my job at a high level. Am I perfect? No. But I'm confident believing I manage to get the job right 95% of the time- and probably 2% of the leftover occurs when I don't get proper information. The other 3% is usually something stupid I forgot to do, but I own up to my errors.

As for the where to look- I would suggest staying far away from Craigslist (it has its uses, but for finding employees? Nope) and trying more professional outlets like LinkedIn or Monster or the like. Another good potential base is your local vocational/tech school. Their graphic design students might provide a good sign designer, their drafting program a good CNC operator, welding a good fabricator, etc.

At the same time, make sure you're an employer that people actually want to work for (please note I am not accusing you of any of this- I'm just saying from an employee's perspective that these things are irritating as hell):
- Don't scream at them. Ever. It doesn't matter how angry they've made you or how bad they've screwed up. (I walked out on an employer who wouldn't stop screaming at me because I asked a question regarding work scheduling that they didn't like- despite my voice remaining dead level and calm as I asked them not to.)
If they are the ones screaming, calmly ask them to stop. If they refuse, calmly tell them to remove themselves from the building- as they are no longer employed.
- If you have to discipline an employee, do it in private- not in front of everyone.
- If they do something good/beneficial/etc., praise them. It's amazing what a morale boost it is for the boss to say "man, that was a really good idea you had to do XXX on that project".
- If they approach you with an idea, listen to it and give it actual consideration.
- Don't say "because I'm the boss and I said so." That may be true, but it's belittling.
- I completely understand cutting hours to save money. That's tough to recover from. A previous employer did that, too- but it was applied very unfairly, only to production staff, and not to office workers who sat on their asses all day and brought in no revenue (I'm not talking about salespeople, I'm talking secretarial and management who wouldn't have been able to produce a paid job if someone had stuck a gun to their head).
- Be fair.
- Have your policies in writing regarding attendance, tardiness, job performance, etc. And stick to it. Employers who have a policy that says something like "coming in late XXX times in XXX days will result in a suspension of XX" and then allow employees to "slide" on it are going to be taken advantage of.
- Follow through. Whether it's holding reviews, buying them lunch, letting them knock off early on a Friday, or whatever- if you promise something, fulfill that promise. From an employee standpoint, it is maddening for an employer to tell me they're going to do something and then they don't.

Best of luck to you.

You are spot on, I do all of that, I am probably one of the nicest and easiest bosses there is. I've let them get away with murder. But now they are so comfortable they don't feel like they can ever be fired.

I'll try your suggestion for the local tech schools and see how that goes. I do prefer older people (late 30's to early 50's) with experience, had little luck with the young crowd. Thanks

EDIT: By the way I have an employee manual that everyone is required to read and sign off on. Every time there is an update, they have to read it again and sign off again.

 

[ams]

The problem may not be the idea of "employees", so much as the quality of the people you're getting.

How do you get people? Online job site like indeed?? Craigslist? Referrals? If online, could you paste us the text of one of your listings?

Perhaps it would help you to dig up their old resumes and make up a chart in excel with columns like this:

Employee #
Length of employment
Age
Industry Experience (months)
# of previous jobs in last 5 years.
Terms of leaving (Quit/terminated)
Average hours worked per week
Hourly pay
How I rate their work ethic (1-5)
How I rate their ability to learn from mistakes (1-5)
How I rate their attitude (1-5)

Look for patterns:
People with certain # of jobs in last 5 years only lasted a certain length of time.
People making $____ lasted longer than others

The answers are in the data, and it may come back to you not asking the right questions when interviewing, or selecting the right people. To an extent, people will work for a little lower pay if they love what they do and where they do it. Also, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Perhaps some positive reinforcement may go a long way to improving their work ethic and morale? Yours too?

I once interviewed someone and asked them: "What appeals to you about this job?" His shotgun response was "nothing." He quickly added a few more things that were positive, but I should have known right then and there that he wouldn't work out. Fast forward 2 months after hiring and he resigned at a fairly inconvenient time.

I just listened to an interesting book on Audible called "The Great Game of Business" by Jack Stack. The general concept is: "open up the financial books to all your staff and let them see how things are going. Give them a stake in the game and see how they respond to it."

I balance it against the idea from the book "Good to Great" of "You have to get the right people on the bus, and the wrong people off the bus as quickly as possible."

Early on I tried craigslist, but after 3 or so, I went to Indeed and got a bit better quality with the exception of two people. I've had tried my local employment commission office which was pretty poor, one is working out decently. The best I have out of the rest.

My job descriptions are fairly basic, a paragraph of the job, the requirements, helpful knowledge and, pay depending on experience and how to apply.
However I've found that if you put in a requirement, people ignore it and apply anyways. So they don't read.

 

[rossmosh]

1. Based on your financials, you're not charging enough. Jobs are typically supposed to follow the thirds rule. 1/3 - COGS. 1/3 - Fixed Expenses. 1/3 - Profit. If you screw up a job, you're supposed to lose the profit and essentially break even. You clearly aren't following that model and based on your post, should switch to it as soon as possible.

2. There is little point in taking a job if you're going to lose money. The only time I'd consider it acceptable is if it opens you up to a new revenue stream. For example, if you want to start wrapping cars, you may end up losing a small sum of money on the first couple of cars. There is a cost to learning and so it's not unheard of to see a loss while learning. Going strictly based on your financials, you're taking jobs and losing money regularly.

3. You need to quantify what's a big job differently. I wouldn't consider $2000 a big job.

4. Your employees suck either because of you. Now that may sound harsh, but it's true. You're either hiring poorly or a bad leader/boss. Let's just assume that's not your strength. Well, it sounds like you need a shop foreman. Someone that can lead a bunch of employees to do a good job. They can maybe sniff out a bad employee better. Let's just say you hire this person and pay them 10% more than your highest paid employee at the moment. Let's also assume they cut mistakes by 50% or more. Does that make you money?

5. You need to look at your process. Why is it so easy to make mistakes? People don't walk into work to do a bad job. They just want to go to work, do their job, and go home. It sounds like something is broken in your process which is resulting in regular errors.

It's easier said than done but if you're not doing well, you have to be willing to change. Are you willing to do what's necessary to succeed?

 

[ams]

Well, at least now i know where my guys went when they stopped showing up for work here.....
My three most experienced production/installer guys are gone since January,
Not one of them had the nads to give me 2 weeks notice or even tell me face to face, just email.
Trying to find new people to train up while we are the most busy we have ever been is a real treat.
My only job requirement is "Can you show up at 8 and stay until 5 at least 4 or 5 days a week."

Hope you get your crew issues worked out.

Thanks. Yeah one of my now fired employees from a year ago, whom I regret I failed to do a background check on was in jail for a felony and his drivers license was revoked. He kept trying to sleep with my last receptionist and one day he said "I have to leave before I do something I may regret" which I took as a threat, after no call no show for two days I fired him. He went to unemployment and of course I won against him.

 

[ams]

I'll give you an "Employees" perspective.

Are you offering a fair wage? If you're only offering minimum wage... The same goes for employees as it does in the sign world, you get what you pay for.

My current company has 20 or so people. There's a few of us making $20 an hour, and we're the ones who bust our asses off. The guys who take a 5 minute break every hour? The'yre making $13-14 an hour. They're also the ones who require a lot of checking in on / supervision... while a few of us are handed what needs to be done, and we don't even see the boss until the end of the day.

A lot of them sit around doing nothing most of the day, and say "this is how much work my 10 cent raise gets you". I got $1.50 raise this year - They don't seem to realize it's proportionate to how much work you do / how valuable you are.

I'm not saying you're a bad owner, it just sounds like your money is tight, so maybe you're offering wage is bringing in the lazy people / people who can't get better jobs because of their work ethics. You may want to up the wages, and get valuable people. I make $6-7 more than some employees... but I do literally, not even joking, 2-3x the work they do. Sometimes it makes sense to pay for a better quality employee. One who actually cares about the quality of work they're doing.

My last job was in shipping / receiving. I was a lead hand, and I had a part in the hiring process. We'd get 300 resumes every time we hired, which allowed us to be picky. we tailored the questions to what they like about the job... asked what they know about our company, etc. a GOOD employee will research the company they're applying for. That means they're looking for a "Career", not just a job to get by - Have a stricter hiring process, be picky, and you may find a good employee. Of course all of this is dependent on you getting lots of resumes...

A good employee can make a company, and bad ones can break it. If your employees are producing sub-par work, and costing you money... let them go. Hire new ones,

If you only have 20 work orders, 5 of which are over 2K, and you're 30k in debt, it may be time to let your employees go, and become small again. Don't take on anymore jobs until these are done. Otherwise you'll just be digging yourself into more debt. Even if you have 30k worth of jobs on the table - Material cost + employee cost would still keep you in debt.... It might be time to do some re-structuring.

Currently I hire at $12.00 / hour (our state minimum wage is $7.25) so I should get something decent, except my lead installer who is also our welder and engineer is $13/hr.

I am in the process of restructuring, since the first of the year I've been making a ton of changes. The smaller jobs are anywhere from $300 - $1,000 that we currently have, one is a monument sign with a digital reader board which I believe the quote was $28,000? Also been talking to Food Lion, they want a Pylon sign, so we would design, permit, blueprint specs, have it manufactured and then we install it ourselves, so probably a $15,000 or so job.

We get on average 2 large jobs a month, our normally jobs are around $500, not including the standard banners and all.

Here are a few reasons I am in debt. #1. Once I got a little behind in rent, the landlord has been destroying me with large late fees $240 / month. I had gotten an American Express business card and had free interest for a year, things went well for almost the whole year. Then the installers screwed up a ton of jobs and cost me a few thousand dollars. Then high interest hit and it keeps going up. I've been paying more on rent and supplier bills and hardly anything on credit cards.
My receptionist handles making quotes and doing invoices and payments, she messes up a lot and I've lost a ton on jobs, even had many upset customers because she didn't invoice correctly. I write all quotes, but when she types it in the system, it often gets screwed up.

There are many more reasons why I am in debt, but it's not because of charging too little, it's due to the huge royal mistakes of the employees.

 

[Quark]

 

[rossmosh]

1. You don't pay enough. $12/hr for skilled labor is a joke. You can pay $12/hr for someone between 16-22 to start out. You cannot pay a 30-50 year old that wage and expect anything but a loser. $13/hr for a welder and "engineer" is an absolute joke. That person should make $20/hr minimum. Virginia is a big state so I know the COL is all over the place, but still $13/hr is a joke.

2. You can't hire a receptionist to handle invoicing, quotes, and job orders. Receptionist answers the phone and does some basic office work. Again, you're trying to hire someone for cheap to do "skilled labor". The person doing the billing, collecting the money, ordering the parts, and creating work orders for employees is the most important part of the business. If they screw up the first step, you're going to screw up the job. Step 1 must be correct so step 7 can be correct.

3. Those are bigger jobs. But the question is, what's your profit? You're clearly not charging enough because the numbers tell me that. People that charge the right amount do not lose "a ton on jobs".

You really need to look at yourself and why these things are going the way they are. Blaming your employees is a bad habit and one that could put you out of business.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

You have too many jobs? RAISE PRICES! Make more $$ doing less work. More $$ means better pay offered to a better employee. Also, you need to be a leader and set the tone for the shop. Expect failure and get failure.

I was afraid to raise prices but because my time didn't match the jobs coming in I had to. BEST decision I ever made.

 

[mortil]

im not living in the state, but its a shame you didnt write this in december. January-February is always dead time here in sweden and i would have jumped on a plane and helpt you out. i do it all the time here in sweden. gets called in when big companies installers suck

But as previous people written . raise prices,better payment for your employees.
Gasouthpaw is right on spot.

Hope it sorts out for you man :/

 

[mfatty500]

Not one of them had the nads to give me 2 weeks notice or even tell me face to face, just email.

Let me guess, these are younger people in their 20's & 30's, that generation has no respect or ethics at all.

 

[GAC05]

Let me guess, these are younger people in their 20's & 30's, that generation has no respect or ethics at all.

You are right about their ages.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Let me guess, these are younger people in their 20's & 30's, that generation has no respect or ethics at all.

As a 37 yr old, I'm not too sure I like that comment to well.

It may be true more often then not, but it sure reads like you are including all in that comment.

 

[rossmosh]

Let me guess, these are younger people in their 20's & 30's, that generation has no respect or ethics at all.

Hate to break it to you, but this is not factual.

First, the dying work ethic of the younger generation is false. Statistics prove time and again that everything is roughly the same as it once was and younger people actually often work more hours because they are always on call due to smart phones and broadband internet access being so widely available. The "young people don't know how to work" statement has been around as long as anyone can remember. I really wish people would drop this narrative as it's simply not true.

Second, business and the baby boomers (or a little older) actually created the environment where respect was no longer a thing. Right to work has it's pros but it also has it's cons. If a business has every right to fire someone at 4:30PM on a Friday and escort them off the premises, why should an employee offer 2 weeks notice? I personally advocate the PTO policy. If you give me 10 days PTO, I give you two weeks notice. No PTO = No notice.

 

[ikarasu]

Currently I hire at $12.00 / hour (our state minimum wage is $7.25) so I should get something decent, except my lead installer who is also our welder and engineer is $13/hr.

I am in the process of restructuring, since the first of the year I've been making a ton of changes. The smaller jobs are anywhere from $300 - $1,000 that we currently have, one is a monument sign with a digital reader board which I believe the quote was $28,000? Also been talking to Food Lion, they want a Pylon sign, so we would design, permit, blueprint specs, have it manufactured and then we install it ourselves, so probably a $15,000 or so job.

We get on average 2 large jobs a month, our normally jobs are around $500, not including the standard banners and all.

Here are a few reasons I am in debt. #1. Once I got a little behind in rent, the landlord has been destroying me with large late fees $240 / month. I had gotten an American Express business card and had free interest for a year, things went well for almost the whole year. Then the installers screwed up a ton of jobs and cost me a few thousand dollars. Then high interest hit and it keeps going up. I've been paying more on rent and supplier bills and hardly anything on credit cards.
My receptionist handles making quotes and doing invoices and payments, she messes up a lot and I've lost a ton on jobs, even had many upset customers because she didn't invoice correctly. I write all quotes, but when she types it in the system, it often gets screwed up.

There are many more reasons why I am in debt, but it's not because of charging too little, it's due to the huge royal mistakes of the employees.

I'm in Canada, so it may be different. Minimum wage here is $11.50. Our employer also pays for health care, extended healthcare, dental, etc. So as you can see, it's far above the $12-13 you pay.

I don't know how things are in Virginia... But I think your problem might be due to the pay you're offering. It may be over min wage, but I'm sure your competitors are paying more, which is where all the "talent" is going.

Not everyone can learn digital printing, or wrapping, or how to make/design signs... especially electrical where you need blueprints, permits, everything else.

You're getting the bottom of the barrel... If you want better quality work, hire better quality people, which also means paying a higher wage. If someone is constantly making mistakes, fire them and hire someone else. If you've let your employees walk all over you, now they expect it... show them it wont be tolerated, or it'll keep happening.