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First Time purchase/set up

Discussion in 'Newbie Forum' started by jinfausto, Nov 15, 2007.

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  1. jinfausto

    jinfausto New Member

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    We have a church printshop which produces printed material using Illustrator CS3. Are looking to expand to produce banners for our churches. Looking at purchasing the Graphtec CE5000 and Signlab to run it. We probably won't produce more than 50-75 banners per year and some vehicle decals. Any suggestions?
     
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  2. cOrKinSA

    cOrKinSA Very Active Member

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    Have someone do the jobs for you guys. It would be a waist of using your followers donations for some thing like that. I mean c'mon, you are practically already Tax Exempt.
     
  3. Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Major Contributor

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    Hire and support your local sign professional
     
  4. jinfausto

    jinfausto New Member

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    Thanks for the input

    We did hire someone for the last banner. It cost us $180.00 for a 3x12 banner. For the price of 10-15 banners we could be able to produce our own and provide them to our churches, of which we have over 100 and save some of the parishoners money.

    But, what I really wanted was input on the machine and the software.
    Thanks
     
  5. jiarby

    jiarby Major Contributor

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    You'll spend ALOT more than you save... in tools, supplies, materials, and especialy time & frustration. With folks online selling banners for $3/ft (or less!) there isn't any economic reason to do it!
     
  6. gvgraphics

    gvgraphics Very Active Member

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    What you need to realize is that you are asking SIGN SHOPS to give you info so you can stop using SIGN SHOPS.

    Does this sound right to you? Thats like buying your own press so you can print your own bibles and cut out the publisher. Now that wouldn't right would it?
     
  7. zmatalucci

    zmatalucci Very Active Member

    repent
     
  8. jinfausto

    jinfausto New Member

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    You mean to tell me you have never asked for advice from a professional in any field to enable you to perform a certain task yourself to save some dollars?
    What we are trying to do is give our churches the most bang for their buck. However the $3/ft on line offers do sound intriguing.
     
  9. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    That's a common math fallacy. Let's examine the logic a bit closer.

    100 banners at $180 = $18,000.00 setup, printed, and finished.

    Material cost of 100 banners = $3,600.00
    Average time per banner to setup, produce and finish = 2 hours
    Average value of your time = $12.00 to $15.00 per hour
    Investment needed for equipment, software and inventory = $20,000.00 to $25,000.00
    Expected life of equipment = 5 years
    Maintenance cost per year = $1,000.00


    Materials = $3,600.00
    Labor = $2,400.00
    Total time and materials for 100 banners = $6,000.00
    Cost per banner for time and materials = $60.00

    Equipment per year = $4,000.00
    Maintenance per year = $1,000.00
    Total equipment cost per year = $5,000.00
    Cost per banner at 100 banners per year = $50.00

    Savings if volume is 100 banners per year = $7,000.00
    Savings if volume is 200 banners per year = $19,000.00

    Savings if you shop around for a supplier who is more competitive, say willing for the volume to handle your needs at $3.00 to $4.00 per square foot:

    100 banners = $18,000.00 to $36,000.00
    200 banners = $36,000.00 to $72,000.00

    The numbers speak for themselves.
     
  10. thesignexpert

    thesignexpert Active Member

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    Fred,

    Maybe my instincts are way off base here... but this thread strikes me as remarkably similar to a particularly hot recent one regarding charity work and cheap equipment...?

    Tim Evans
     
  11. jiarby

    jiarby Major Contributor

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    the CE5000 is a good cutter, but it has an optical sensor that you won't use if you are only cutting (not print/cut).

    You can get a chinese cutter with a "kitty name" for about $3-400 without the optical sensor. If you wanna save the sheckels you may as well go all the way.

    Avery makes good vinyl for budget minded folks too! It doesn't have to stick until Jesus comes back does it?
     
  12. WhiskeyDreamer

    WhiskeyDreamer Professional Snow Ninja

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    fred -
    i can't believe you took the time to figure all that out....but it does give a perfect argument
     
  13. jinfausto

    jinfausto New Member

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    Fred
    Thanks for taking the time to figure cost. However I would question the $20,000 initial cost. The Graphtec CE5000 is only $1500, Signlab software through Ordway is $600. Initial cost could be kept under $2500. This is not to set up a full scale shop, just do what is necessary.
    Then you lost me at the last when you gave figures on savings if using a different vendor. If purchased 100 3x12 banners at $3.00 per sq ft the cost would be 36 sq ft x 100 x $3.00 which is $10,800. Even with your figures ($20,000 initial investment) I could make them for $11,000 ( or about the same) and keep it in house. If I could drop that initial investment I would be actually saving money. I know it would be a lot to learn, but we do have people here that are knowledgeable in the printing and computer field. If there is fault in my logic please feel free to explain. If you consider this a waste of your time, then I thank you for all your advice and wish you a good day.
    P.S. I have never posted here before today and was not the orginator of the previous thread concerning charity, or cheap machines.
    Jerry
     
  14. zmatalucci

    zmatalucci Very Active Member

    so are you printing or are you cutting?
    Your initial post stated that you are a print shop.
     
  15. jinfausto

    jinfausto New Member

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    Nov 15, 2007
    We are currently printing business cards, pamphlets etc for our churches. We wish to expand to be able to provide banners for such things as special events, children's church etc. Our understanding was to cut vinyl lettering to adhere to pre-fab banners with grommets.
     
  16. Sign_Boy

    Sign_Boy Major Contributor

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    Jerry,

    I think the point that they are trying to drive home is...

    It's not as simple as I'll buy a plotter and some software
    and be up and running.

    There is a huge learning curve in this industry.
    Design is one thing. Setting the file up right for vinyl
    output is a different animal in itself.
    Then you have to setup a workspace.
    Vinyl - Tape - Tools - and the knowledge of how to use them all.

    How many banners do you plan on making in a month?

    Why SignLab?
    Why not just output from Illy. if you want to save some money?

    Do you have any background in signs?

    I will not tell you not to do it that's not my place.
    But there are plenty of places to get banners made
    for a reasonable price.

    I will say think it through.


    Just my .02
     
  17. zmatalucci

    zmatalucci Very Active Member

    well then you can get in the door for a cheap amount of money, if your only cutting vinyl, and not printing it.
     
  18. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    My understanding was that you wanted to print your banners. If you want to cut, weed, mask and apply pressure sensitive vinyl then none of my calculations would be accurate. Your materials and labor would be higher while your investment would be lower. You would also be considerably mor limited in what you could do with your banners.

    My recommendation would be a ValueJet without a plotter if all you want to make is outdoor banners. That would put you in the $15K range for the printer alone.

    If you are thinking of cut-weed-mask-apply as an approach, I suggest that you find a way to look at the tasks and labor involved before you conclude that this is a good way for you to go.
     
  19. jinfausto

    jinfausto New Member

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    Everything we currently do in our printshop we have learned as we go. We started out with offset printers and have progressed to HP9500 Laser printers. It is understandable that this would not be an easy task to assimilate, but if one man can do it then another can also if the necessary perservance is used. As far as space is concerned with have an adequate shop that is probably 80' x 30' that should work. It is where we used the offset printers before the 9500s. As far as software is concerned we can use Illustrator, but signlab was suggested. That is the whole reason I wrote on this thread to begin with; to get some feedback from men who knew the business and could give some advice. Finally, with our own machine the possibility of future expansion of our product exists, rather than limiting ourselves to just using what is provided by others.
    Again, I thank all of you for your time and input. I am really just finding my way in this area (it was tasked to me by my boss) so I am learning as I go even now.
     
  20. Pat Whatley

    Pat Whatley Major Contributor

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    Or you could sub them out and have them made for $3600, save a fortune, support a merchant, not ruffle any feathers here, not have to buy a plotter and put the other $7400 into doing what the church is supposed to be doing which the last time I checked had NOTHING to do with making signs.

    http://signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24197
     
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