Discussion Have ya gotten the feeling......................

[James Burke]

Why would a 30 year old go crank a lever for 10$ an hr, when they can flip a burger for 15$ an hr. Sorry, not sorry.

Because that's the short-sightedness of a generation that has never seen a truly bad economy. When the $hit hits the fan and the tide turns, the burger flipper will wish they'd done things differently. They're being lulled into a very bad situation so very early in life.


JB

 

[Gino]

That's kinda gross... glad I don't go out to eat much, anymore.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Because that's the short-sightedness of a generation that has never seen a truly bad economy. When the $hit hits the fan and the tide turns, the burger flipper will wish they'd done things differently.


JB

Those that are making the decision (on how factories and businessses are tooled) are not necessarily of the same generation (yet) as those entering the work force.

 

[James Burke]

People turning the crank are just going to eventually be out of business.

As long as things need to be repaired, there will always be a need for skilled manual tradesmen. ALWAYS.

CNC is a wonderful tool, but it's just that...a tool. In a good number of the cases, manual repairs can be made quicker and more economically than setting up CNC equipment. In rare cases, a CNC is not even a viable option.


JB

 

[WildWestDesigns]

That's kinda gross... glad I don't go out to eat much, anymore.

And I hope that includes don't get your groceries from the grocery store as well. Not safe there either.

Few stories of some that like to take swigs or licks of product. One story out of philly of someone peeing on some foodstuff.

 

[HulkSmash]

I don't know how much longer burger flipping is going to be a viable option though.

Given the recent vogue of licking food that's destined for other people, might cause it to be sooner then later.

yeah, just giving a quick example of how the art of pulling a lever is kinda dead compared to what other jobs are offering for more.

 

[Gino]

Well, some things, just don't die off easily. Men's tuxedo for the nice basic design has been the same cut for over 130 years. Lotsa railroads and other things are based upon the old Roman war chariots..... in fact to get the boosters for the Space Shuttle to the launching pad, they had to go via train and the tunnels are only large enough to fit 2 war horses through so the world's most advanced transportation is based upon the width of a horse's a$$.

Now, THAT's some vital information you can take to the bank, although there's no bank tellers anymore.

Does this mean modern technology and whatnot is putting more and more people outta work ?? Oh, no...... that can't be true...... can it ??​

 

[Billct2]

I was thinking about something along those lines today...when was the last time a young kid came in your shop, saw what you were doing and said how cool
it looks to be doing that...could I learn how. Nope, all they see is a bunch of computers and big printers and they already "know how to do that".

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I was thinking about something along those lines today...when was the last time a young kid came in your shop, saw what you were doing and said how cool
it looks to be doing that...could I learn how. Nope, all they see is a bunch of computers and big printers and they already "know how to do that".

Meh, not when your installing signs 40 feet in the air... My teenage brother-in-law likes being on the crew... learned how to use power tools and operate a lift and saw things... good skills... computers and machines are meh, but lifting big signs in the air on a lift is cool

 

[BluetailGFX]

In the early 1900's, a sign maker would take up to 7 days to produce a single 4x8 sign. (Atkinson's)
Everything by hand.......
Making their own brushes, making their own paints.......with real Lead.
Hand cutting shapes.
Making brushes from their work transportation's tail hairs and left over parts from their lunch.
Re using and re washing rags for cleaning.
Etc, Etc, Etc......

So when did "the soul" of being a commercial artist really start to die?
Pre canned paints?
The electro-pounce?
The Gerber 4B?
The Arizona 180?
2mm RGB LED panels?
Tesla's Direct Advert Mind Projector Laser Array?

As my Father has said...."We are all part of the Second Oldest Profession on Earth. They even have electronics involved now in the First Oldest....."

So trust in the fact that there are souls in the air that poo-poo your metal maul sticks and pre-cast pounce wheels just as much as some still walking the Earth look down on my curved 32 inch monitor connected to the equivalent of a small house in printing equipment.

 

[d fleming]

I started hand painting signs and making screen films by hand. I very much enjoy the speed and versatility I have with modern tools. I have built commercially for years as well as signs. Small businesses to Disney. I helped build Avatar in Disney Orlando with my brother. The craftsman are still out there. However, the vast majority of younger sign makers couldn't design their way out of a realtor sign these days. The amount of terrible work out there is astounding. They may have a degree in design, but they can't spell or hand draw a square. Kerning, compression, negative space, boundaries, you name it, they don't know it.

 

[unclebun]

I started hand painting signs and making screen films by hand. I very much enjoy the speed and versatility I have with modern tools. I have built commercially for years as well as signs. Small businesses to Disney. I helped build Avatar in Disney Orlando with my brother. The craftsman are still out there. However, the vast majority of younger sign makers couldn't design their way out of a realtor sign these days. The amount of terrible work out there is astounding. They may have a degree in design, but they can't spell or hand draw a square. Kerning, compression, negative space, boundaries, you name it, they don't know it.

And the sad part of it is, because they think they know how to use the computers and attached machines, they think they know how to do everything and don't want to be told about how a sign should be made, what should or shouldn't be done design-wise, what the real purpose of the sign or wrap is, and so on. Case in point the recent thread where I pointed out that not every graphic that goes on a vehicle is a wrap and some people tried to shout that down. Or the even more recent one where a sign maker didn't know that a boat license has spaces or hyphens that are required. They not only don't know everything, they don't even realize they don't know everything and they also don't know the right places to look to find out things they don't know.

 

[Gino]

Well, I'm sorry, but I didn't mean for this to be a bash towards newbies or young people in the business. Nor what someone does or does not know, but the difference in how anyone goes about this trade these days.

Certainly, ya need talent and to be able to regconize good from bad at either level. There were some real doozies in the hand painting world, too. Not everyone was good, but the vast majority were. The fact is, there were only a handful of substrates and only one or two ways to prepare them. Ya either hand-lettered a board, truck or front window or you screened it. Yes, you can screen print windows and just about any other surface...... while they're in place on a building.

I just get a kick out of all this cut and copy and pasting of stuff, usually copying it from somewhere and calling it finished artwork/designs/layouts. No thought of any of the basic elements are even entered into the equation. Color wheel theory is not known, but PMS is. Machines do ALL the work and people get a kinda satisfaction from it. It's good to be happy and proud if you instal signs, wrap vehicles or buildings, but there's still something very rewarding and gratifying about taking something from basically nothing and making it into something, using your hands. Sculpting is something I can do, but not very good at it. I had pottery class in college and it was a lotta fun, but painting signs or doing a fine arts piece is much more to me. It's just what's in side me, I guess. No need to bash each other. Pushing buttons and knowing when to not go any further is a good skill, just not the same as was first intentioned with this thread.

 

[ikarasu]

Everything changes. I bet when you guys were hand painting signs and cutting vinyl out with projectors you never thought a graphtec could do your job in 5 seconds, or a printer could print 1000 different colors by the time your done mixing one.

In 10,20 years time we'll look back at our old antiquated printers. Everything will have changed and while it may be for the better... I'm sure all of us newer generation who grew up with graphtecs and printers will be missing them also. Heck... Screen printing is going the way of the dodo these days. I think in our area were one of the very few shops who do it...

Change is usually good, but there's nothing wrong with holding onto the past! I'm sure if you refused to innovate with your neighboring sign shops and just painted signs, you'd no longer be in business... But you guys adapted and are keeping up. Not only that... You can offer something all the new shops can't... There's still a market for old hand crafted signs. It may not be as lucrative, but I'm sure it's much more rewarding!

 

[Johnny Best]

I have computer, plotter, printer, laminator and put out a lot of signage but I also revert back to the old ways to do things. Mainly because I can, not like some who do not have that choice.
And if I remember right the Dodo bird could not fly and was easily caught to be eaten. So maybe as one older signguy suggested so we don't get eaten and become extinct, we should eat some gummy bears and fly out of harms way

 

[GAC05]

I was thinking about something along those lines today...when was the last time a young kid came in your shop, saw what you were doing and said how cool
it looks to be doing that...could I learn how. Nope, all they see is a bunch of computers and big printers and they already "know how to do that".

I think you may have met my son.......

 

[rydods]

I just turned 40. 18 yrs in the sign industry (10 yrs on my own this year) Since I started out on my own, I quickly realized that I would get passed up if I didn't just focus on me and what I could do to make things more efficient and take advantage of all of the various new tools, gadgets and forms of communication. The speed at which business moves drives me crazy sometimes but I know that's just the way it is.
If I begin to grow frustrated with the way things have become and long too much for the "good old days", I'll know at that time, it's either time to sell, retire or hire someone to manage everything.
Ironic thing is, I actually picture my retirement being me in the back of the shop where no one bothers me and creating hand carved/painted custom signs.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I still draw things out with a 4B pencil or a fountain pen with carbon ink. I like it better than a computer.
It is more efficient for me. But I never considered myself to be a business person either.
But when AOC cuts the electric off on us all before 12 years is up, I will work by candle or just during the day.

Well, I work out ideas with a 3mm HB. I like the thicker lead so I don't get caught up in the details. Any pencil softer than a HB will work though. I attached some samples.

As far as carbon ink, I use it (Platinum Carbon Black) in my Noodler flex pens, but it is quite a procedure to clean if I don't clean it every few days. I actually have a gold plated Cross fountain pen that I prefer for sketching, but the carbon black gets nowhere close to it! A lot of my ink drawings are done with a WN series 7 sable #2 and #4, and/or a dip pen (G nibs lately) and Higgins Black Magic. It is a little slower having to dip all the time, but I save time on clean-up!

 

[HulkSmash]

cool

 

[kcollinsdesign]

The plethora of technical solutions available today is a boon to both the sign industry and the end user. Part of the job of a competent sign professional is to advise clients on the use of appropriate technolgies for their imaging and sign needs.

As the industry evolves, the importance of graphic design is no less relevant than it has ever been. The most important thing in any sign is the messaging. Many sign firms will concentrate on fabrication, installation, service, and maintenance, leaving design to corporate art departments or design specialists. Others will decide to emphasize design. I foresee increased specialization in these areas as traditional sign shops no longer have exclusive access to the methods of production. Of course, there will always be a place for those who do both well, as well as artisanal signmakers who continue to create amazing work.