HEALTH INSURANCE!........How I loathe you!

[CanuckSigns]

So, you want a socialistic sort of healthcare, but what about your auto insurance ?? Should we all pay for you if you wanna drive around drunk, without a license or just recklessly ?? What about your income taxes or food bill or the furniture in your house ?? Are we all to pay for the people who have not done a thing to help themselves ??

I'm really not sure what sort of evil propaganda they use down south to scare you into thinking everything socialist is evil, but I thought I would answer your questions based on my expericence in the "evil" socialist hell hole that you call Canada.

You bring up auto insurance, I'm not sure why you feel they are comparable, Health care is a universal right, driving around in a car is not. Auto insurance up here is done using the exact same system you use (at least in Ontario) no one is considering changing that.

Your other examples are just as misguided, again what does income tax have to do with healthcare?

The fact of the matter is that the USA already spends more per person on healthcare than we do, the only difference is you have absolutely nothing to show for it, we on the other hand can go to the doctor and have medical issues dealt with before they potentially become larger issues. Yes my tax dollars do end up paying for some layabout who may not contribute to the system as much as I do, but that's just part of the system, you have to stop looking at it in a "how come that guy gets coverage when I pay more" kind of way and start looking at "If I'm ever in their shoes, I won't be forced to die of cancer because I can't afford the treatment" I do believe medical bills are by far the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the USA.

when my mother was going through treatment for her cancer, We had enough on our minds, I extremely grateful that they didn't need to figure out how to come up with a huge amount of money to pay for it.

You already have similar socialist systems in place in your country that seem to work just fine, Schools are funded by tax dollars as are Police & Fire departments, yet no one is running around screaming that they would rather pay for individual fire insurance on your home over fears of the government mismanaging the funds.

 

[Gino]

I'm really not sure what sort of evil propaganda they use down south to scare you into thinking everything socialist is evil, but I thought I would answer your questions based on my expericence in the "evil" socialist hell hole that you call Canada.

I'm not saying it is evil..... I'm saying I don't like it. I also didn't call Canada a hell hole. The few times I've been there, I quite liked it.

You bring up auto insurance, I'm not sure why you feel they are comparable, Health care is a universal right, driving around in a car is not. Auto insurance up here is done using the exact same system you use (at least in Ontario) no one is considering changing that.

There is no way health insurance is a given right. If handled properly we'd all have it down here as we did 50 years ago. Too many needy people jumped on America's 'free, take and abuse apron strings and is quickly breaking the system.

Your other examples are just as misguided, again what does income tax have to do with healthcare?

It's just how things progress, that's all.

The fact of the matter is that the USA already spends more per person on healthcare than we do, the only difference is you have absolutely nothing to show for it, we on the other hand can go to the doctor and have medical issues dealt with before they potentially become larger issues. Yes my tax dollars do end up paying for some layabout who may not contribute to the system as much as I do, but that's just part of the system, you have to stop looking at it in a "how come that guy gets coverage when I pay more" kind of way and start looking at "If I'm ever in their shoes, I won't be forced to die of cancer because I can't afford the treatment" I do believe medical bills are by far the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the USA.

The whole entire country of Canada doesn't even have as many people as California alone, so you can't make a statement like that. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I would say your country's amount of lazy needy people is much less than the US, but even so...... not counting people on pensions, social security, medicare unemployment or veterans benefits, we have over a 100,000,00 people on our ticket, basically free. If you add the things I just mentioned, which are pre-paid into throughout someone's life, unlike the others we are discussing, it goes up to almost 160,000,000 people. Still far more than your country at like 3 to 5 times over. For that matter, our country could give everyone of your people free health care and be better off, without the burden of all the freeloaders down here.


when my mother was going through treatment for her cancer, We had enough on our minds, I extremely grateful that they didn't need to figure out how to come up with a huge amount of money to pay for it.

The same for my mother and my father... years later. However, it was all handled by the insurance carrier my father had through work. It cost next to nothing back then and was quite thorough. Deductibles were next to nothing and premiums were totally affordable for a family of any size.

You already have similar socialist systems in place in your country that seem to work just fine, Schools are funded by tax dollars as are Police & Fire departments, yet no one is running around screaming that they would rather pay for individual fire insurance on your home over fears of the government mismanaging the funds.

But they are. Even they are running out of money. Townships, boroughs and small municipalities are combining to cover costs. Police forces are being made smaller, fire departments are not getting what they once did. Their territories are getting larger with less people to operate in the areas. The only places that aren't are the inner cities and they are collapsing right and left.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain, but I've talked to too many Canadians that do not view it the same way as you do. I've also talked to some that view exactly like you, but I can also say, down here, there are far more people who view these problems as I do and the latest elections have proved that.

 

[threeputt]

It says on their web page that you need to be a regular church attender, not smoke and use alcohol moderately. (if at all)

 

[Bobby H]

You've stated your age several times, so I would only presume you are old enough to remember when it wasn't this way, but yet, it was still a capitalist system. We didn't have all the poachers and needy people years ago. We all [all creeds, colors and levels] took care of our medical problems by going to the doctor for normal treatments. No one ever thought of abusing the hospitals and emergency wards the way they are by the socialist needy people of today and especially the last 25 years.

If it was just poor brown people mooching off the system our health care costs wouldn't be nearly so high. The main group of people driving up costs is older Americans getting older and dying long, drawn out and very expensive deaths. Poor brown people are an easy target. Good luck to a politician who wants to start pulling the plug on millions of elderly white people.

There's also a pretty big orgy of greed taking place in the US health care industrial complex. Health care might not be a right to anyone in America, but it sure as anything is an asset class for investors.

I don't live in a huge city, but both hospitals in my town are lined by huge houses that look like it would take a Hollywood movie star's income to support. The United States now spends over 17% of its entire GDP on health care and is trending fast to hitting 20%. Other developed nations spend nowhere near this much. France is ranked 2nd most in health care spending at 11.6%. Canada spends 10.6% of its GDP on health care. We have "socialized medicine" in this country already, just a very strange version of it. To repeat something I said earlier, there probably isn't a hospital or other major health care entity that could survive without huge amounts of taxpayer money flowing into the coffers. If all these hospitals had to survive just on what patients could pay out of pocket none of those facilities would be surrounded by mansions.

Most other industries have some sort of controls holding down their costs. Our electric company can't pass on a rate hike unless it gets approved by the Oklahoma Corporation Commission. Hospitals, drug companies, specialists, etc. can charge whatever they want. There's no controls. Patients cannot easily shop around like one would do to buy a new set of tires, clothing or whatever. Unless someone puts a foot down on all this runaway cost inflation the US health care industrial complex will eventually implode our economy.

 

[TimToad]

I'm really not sure what sort of evil propaganda they use down south to scare you into thinking everything socialist is evil, but I thought I would answer your questions based on my expericence in the "evil" socialist hell hole that you call Canada.

You bring up auto insurance, I'm not sure why you feel they are comparable, Health care is a universal right, driving around in a car is not. Auto insurance up here is done using the exact same system you use (at least in Ontario) no one is considering changing that.

Your other examples are just as misguided, again what does income tax have to do with healthcare?

The fact of the matter is that the USA already spends more per person on healthcare than we do, the only difference is you have absolutely nothing to show for it, we on the other hand can go to the doctor and have medical issues dealt with before they potentially become larger issues. Yes my tax dollars do end up paying for some layabout who may not contribute to the system as much as I do, but that's just part of the system, you have to stop looking at it in a "how come that guy gets coverage when I pay more" kind of way and start looking at "If I'm ever in their shoes, I won't be forced to die of cancer because I can't afford the treatment" I do believe medical bills are by far the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the USA.

when my mother was going through treatment for her cancer, We had enough on our minds, I extremely grateful that they didn't need to figure out how to come up with a huge amount of money to pay for it.

You already have similar socialist systems in place in your country that seem to work just fine, Schools are funded by tax dollars as are Police & Fire departments, yet no one is running around screaming that they would rather pay for individual fire insurance on your home over fears of the government mismanaging the funds.

Even auto insurance in the U.S. is socialized. Nearly everyone carries "uninsured coverage" for when someone without insurance is involved. That is everyone paying a little to lessen the harm caused by someone without insurance for whatever reason. Even at the gas pumps, we are socialized. The gas taxes I pay here in California are put in a giant pool of the Dept. of Transportation and spent all across the country on repair and maintenance.

Your second point drills in on the problem. Many overly impressionable Americans have been conditioned to believe that healthcare is a privilege and not a right and that anything that even resembles doing something for the collective good is bad. There is an entire generation of Americans who have been indoctrinated since the Cold War and before to be leery of anything that smacks of socialism or worse communism. This tactic has been employed by the ruling class across the world to keep people who would otherwise be fighting for each others economic interests divided. Its been especially effective in the U.S. How else could you get entire generations to embrace and even violently defend an economic system that is skewed to the top 1% and has had devastating impacts on most working class people?

You're right on all accounts on the pathetic state of our healthcare industry. Americans pay the most for healthcare of the entire industrialized world, receive subpar care, pay enormous costs to get this subpar care, but defend it to the hilt. The kicker is we already have socialized healthcare for our elders, the poor and the military. The number one cause of personal bankruptcies here is medical bills, but if you ask the same people who defend the status quo, they'll tell you its irresponsible spending and frivolous debt accumulation by mostly minorities and other less desirables in our society.

We've had some small anti-tax communities try the Ayn Rand approach and do pay as you go fire, police, roads, etc. public services and its been the predictable disaster one with a brain would expect.

 

[player]

Healthcare should be a right. In Canada it is. Everyone, young, old, black, white, rich, poor...even border jumpers get health care while they wait for deportation. I feel sorry for everyone in the USA. It is just sad the way you think about health care, the sick, the poor, and the dying. The system you have costs way more than ours, and many sick people either lose their houses and everything to get treatment or they die.

Again I am glad healthcare is a right, and nobody has to go without treatment for any reason up here. I wish everyone good health.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I appreciate your taking the time to explain, but I've talked to too many Canadians that do not view it the same way as you do. I've also talked to some that view exactly like you, but I can also say, down here, there are far more people who view these problems as I do and the latest elections have proved that.

Well I guess we will agree to disagree, I do appreciate the time you took to refute in a civil manner.

However I thing I will point out, when I said you spend more on healthcare than we do, the numbers were per capita, which would take our population difference out of the equation FYI.

 

[Gino]

​

 

[royster13]

Well I guess we will agree to disagree, I do appreciate the time you took to refute in a civil manner.

However I thing I will point out, when I said you spend more on healthcare than we do, the numbers were per capita, which would take our population difference out of the equation FYI.

I heard an estimate that 60 cents of every dollar spent on healthcare in the US went to administration, litigation and profit....Does not leave much left for actual healthcare....

 

[bob]

...Health care is a universal right...

Right? Are you unhinged? Anything which constitutes a mortgage on any part of some else's life is not a right.

Just like any other commodity, you should be able to have all of the health care that you can pay for. Just like groceries, Ferraris, and all other commodities. Can't pay? You should have made different decisions in your life.

 

[Signs101Admin]

Canadians seek treatment abroad

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

A late spring storm rolls into the Rockies along the Icefields Parkway on April 25, 2016 near Jasper, Alberta, Canada. Jasper is the largest National Park in the Canadian Rockies and features glaciers, hot springs, lakes, waterfalls, and snowcapped mountains. (Photo by George Rose/Getty Images)
Global Millennials Rank Canada as No. 1 Country
In citing those numbers in its 2015 report, "Leaving Canada for Medical Care," the organization said difficulties in obtaining timely medical care at home is, increasingly, leading Canadians to seek it abroad. "It is possible [they] may have left the country to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of waiting for care, such as worsening of their condition, poorer outcomes following treatment, disability, or death," the report says. "Some may leave simply to avoid delay and to make a quicker return to normal life."

 

[player]

Canadians seek treatment abroad

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

A late spring storm rolls into the Rockies along the Icefields Parkway on April 25, 2016 near Jasper, Alberta, Canada. Jasper is the largest National Park in the Canadian Rockies and features glaciers, hot springs, lakes, waterfalls, and snowcapped mountains. (Photo by George Rose/Getty Images)
Global Millennials Rank Canada as No. 1 Country
In citing those numbers in its 2015 report, "Leaving Canada for Medical Care," the organization said difficulties in obtaining timely medical care at home is, increasingly, leading Canadians to seek it abroad. "It is possible [they] may have left the country to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of waiting for care, such as worsening of their condition, poorer outcomes following treatment, disability, or death," the report says. "Some may leave simply to avoid delay and to make a quicker return to normal life."

52,000 out of how many millions and millions and millions of treatments? Yes there can be problems with wait times. But when you have a heart attack or any other serious thing going on they are fast and really good. But EVERYBODY gets treatment. If we disallowed our poor and homeless and less fortunate and working poor health care, I am sure things would speed up. If we said to someone with a health problem that has no insurance they would not get treatment without $150K or $50K or whatever serious surgery and/or treatments cost (I wouldn't know, we never get a bill) we could speed up the wait times. All the working poor, the sick with pre-existing health issues ALL GET TREATMENT. They also all receive EQUAL treatment.

I have had to wait a long time for a treatment. If I had tons of cash I would pay for it probably in the US. But I don't. So I waited, and after 4 relatively minor surgeries I am on the mend. NO CHARGE... Did I want faster service? Yes. But the surgeon I needed also primarily does cancer surgery, and what I had was not a life or death issue, so I guess I got triage'd to the slow line. If I was told I could jump the line but someone with cancer would not get treated, I would say "No thanks let them go first"...

The nice thing is if you are sick and rich, fly to the US or some other country, pay and get treatment. That is an option as well. Some people have gone to the US after long wait times, and the govt refunded them for the costs they incurred. There are laws about speedy service, and long wait times break those laws. There are also funding incentives for hospitals. When they are efficient, speedy and good, they get more funding than if they are slow or have issues.

 

[andy]

Anecdotes are not evidence.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of 'Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc'. Your post being a rather oblique example. For extra credit explore the notions of necessary and sufficient conditions, confirmation vice proof, critical experiment, and falsifiability. Since these things deal with doing science they're doubtless foreign to you and your posse of true believers.

Every time I attempt to read one of your mangled, teetering, linguistic constructs I swear I can hear my old English teacher gently weeping.

Verbosity is not the precursor of supreme intellect.... although one suspects that your use of the former is to exactly subliminally project the latter upon your "plebbian" audience....

 

[player]

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc'.

The rooster crows immediately before sunrise; therefore the rooster causes the sun to rise.

 

[Gino]

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc'.

The rooster crows immediately before sunrise; therefore the rooster causes the sun to rise.

Based upon your theory, the rooster must be responsible for everything in my parts, cause those darned things are crowing all day and night long. They never shut up. So, all of this healthcare crap is their fault ?? Yep, that's the ticket. Foghorn musta been in the wrong party.

 

[CanuckSigns]

Canadians seek treatment abroad

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

A late spring storm rolls into the Rockies along the Icefields Parkway on April 25, 2016 near Jasper, Alberta, Canada. Jasper is the largest National Park in the Canadian Rockies and features glaciers, hot springs, lakes, waterfalls, and snowcapped mountains. (Photo by George Rose/Getty Images)
Global Millennials Rank Canada as No. 1 Country
In citing those numbers in its 2015 report, "Leaving Canada for Medical Care," the organization said difficulties in obtaining timely medical care at home is, increasingly, leading Canadians to seek it abroad. "It is possible [they] may have left the country to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of waiting for care, such as worsening of their condition, poorer outcomes following treatment, disability, or death," the report says. "Some may leave simply to avoid delay and to make a quicker return to normal life."

Ok, so out of a country of 35 million people the equivalent of a small town decided to seek care in the USA, how is this relevant? Just to reiterate in case math isn't your strong suit, that's 0.001% of the population.

From the article Royster posted below:

The Trump campaign cited research from the right-leaning Canadian think tank Fraser Institute, which found that in 2014, more than 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment outside of Canada. The campaign pointed out that 52,513 people in 2014 represented a 25.5 percent increase over the 2013 estimate of 41,838 people. For context, 52,513 people represent 0.15 percent of the country’s population of 35.5 million in 2014.

The report acknowledges there is “no readily available data on the number of Canadians traveling abroad for health care.” Researchers came up with an estimate by using data from the think tank’s annual survey of Canadian physicians in 12 specialties, combined with data on the number of procedures performed in Canada. The specialized areas they surveyed include plastic surgery, neurosurgery, urology, gynecology and oncology. These procedures were “medically necessary elective treatment,” the report said, though there is no information about exactly what procedure these patients would have received.

The study does not look specifically at Canadians traveling to the United States. The survey asks physicians to estimate the percentage of their patients who received non-emergency medical treatment outside of Canada, rather than asking the question of patients. And it does not ask about a motivation for why Canadians traveled abroad. The report says that one explanation for Canadians traveling abroad may relate to the longer wait times that patients face for medically necessary elective treatment.

Unlike in the United States, appointments in Canada for elective and specialist procedures are determined by priority and need, rather than people who can afford to pay more to see a doctor quickly. While it is true that there are longer wait times in Canada for such procedures, there is no reliable, official data on the number of people traveling from Canada to the United States, said Victor Rodwin, health policy and management professor at New York University’s Wagner School of Public Service.

“What we do know is that the numbers of people who come from Canada to the United States for surgery are very small,” Rodwin said.

 

[royster13]

Ok, so out of a country of 35 million people the equivalent of a small town decided to seek care in the USA, how is this relevant? Just to reiterate in case math isn't your strong suit, that's 0.001% of the population.

And some were "Snowbirds" on the way to their winter homes.....Some were from border towns where is was just convenience that took them over the border....

Trump’s claim about Canadians traveling to the United States for medical care - The Washington Post

 

[TheSnowman]

Just found out yesterday ours is going up 50% this month....awesome.

 

[TimToad]

Right? Are you unhinged? Anything which constitutes a mortgage on any part of some else's life is not a right.

Just like any other commodity, you should be able to have all of the health care that you can pay for. Just like groceries, Ferraris, and all other commodities. Can't pay? You should have made different decisions in your life.

All health problems are related to lifestyle choices?

I suppose getting old or being born is a choice everyone makes also.

The average American consumes over 95% of the total healthcare treatments they receive in two parts of their lives that they have no choice in. Conception to 5 years old and 65 until death. With the first and last year of life consuming most of that 90%.

FICA taxes are a mortgage on someone else's life, lets see a politician go after Medicare and Social Security and publicly describe it how you have.

I can't wait to see old folks eating dog food again like they used to. Or dying in droves without receiving proper care.

 

[Fares Bayazeed]

It really sounds like your income level may be prohibitive of the state's exchange. That is if California is like Oklahoma. Have you gone to a broker?