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Rant Help Make Our Lives Better: Reform Illustrator's Canvas Size Limit

Johnny Best

Active Member
And he probably won't let his employees use their phones while working, but a core digerdoo is OK.
We are a strange bunch.
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I haven't been on here long enough to see many Illustrator threads, but for sure, this one has been like honey for a few Corel vs the world crew. It's sad to me, just like in politics and world views that so many people are willing to dismiss and impede any discussions of ideas or topics which do not align with their ideology. It's a fascinating phenomenon for sure.

If they were good, then they might have an argument... but they aren't. If you design signs exactly how you designed them when you first started out... best to lay low or you will get called out

That's an interesting observation which certainly flies in the face of what I am saying, and I would be curious as to what the listing position said. If your target prospect was for sign industry experience then I would suspect a heavy percentage of Corel users for sure, but if you were trolling in the Ad agency waters I would expect mostly AI users responding. If you still have the listing I would love to see it and perhaps change my perspective.

Here is the list I have collected:
https://www.facebook.com/MYCRIMEINDESIGN/
http://semehicrew.wixsite.com/signs
http://marcoaospinasigndesigns.blogspot.com/?view=timeslide
http://www.brentlogandesign.com
http://www.letterboxsigndesign.com
https://www.charboneausigns.com
https://matthewotasignportfolio.wordpress.com
https://www.chatterboxdesigns.com


Many people bring up "AD AGENCY" but that is not sign designers nirvana...
Experiential/Environmental Graphic Design

http://www.huntdesign.com
http://infinitescale.com
https://rsmdesign.com
https://disneyimaginations.com
http://selbertperkins.com
http://cloudgehshan.com
(there are hundreds more....)



I think you're the only one within this thread who has fully digested both sides of the "Scalers" vs. "[HASHTAG]#abolish277[/HASHTAG]" camps and came out exactly with my message was meant to portray. Yes we can scale, but given the choice which way would you choose, scale or no scale?

Any, I agree with you on pretty much all points you have made. Well said.
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Hey SpooledUP7 I did have a response to your Flexi pros and Cons... but remember, I only design and I have to get the design work to shops who use various production software. I have Flexi and have used pretty much every design/production software out there...

I would never reccommend designing signs in Flexi to start... career wise it's just not a good move

Flexisign Pros:

  • Dynamic floating tool panes. I 100% of the time use Design Central, and Fill/Stroke editor. Both automatically change displaying information according to your active tool. Illustrator requires you to have a window for each tool, filling up your screen or requiring your to move them to another monitor. Not efficient. I also regularly use the layers pane too but only for vehicle wraps.
Odd, I have my tool windows on the side and can expand and retract as needed so my screens do not fill up…



  • 100% scale (Unlimited artboard size) Honestly, I don't understand why illustrator has a limit. Vehicle wraps NOT in scale are a recipe for mistakes
I do wish Illustrator allowed full-size design of large signs so I can send out for production to various programs or vendors. Though for design, I really have no choice but to design in scale because nearly all the signs I design have to go through permitting, review, and estimation where a scale rule will be used or required by municipalities. Also for some graphic installation, an installer will have to whip out a scale ruler to find the exact location to apply graphics. You do need Cadtools to design in scale but the tools/windows in Cadtools have more options than that of Corel and Flexi = especially useful when working in multiple scales, Corel and Flexi (I don’t have the latest Flexi) simply can’t do it.



  • Path editor tools - This alone is worth the program. AB curve, spline, arc, corner etc... controls are like nothing else. You can create and or clean up logos in no time at all. I have shown this to a hundred people and it gets them every time. Every freakin time!
I do dig Flexi’s path editing… I won’t do it in Flexi because by the time I’m done importing and exporting, I would have lost more time than doing it in Illustrator.



  • Effects - easy to understand combine such as fuse, knock out, remove overlap, separate overlap.... Illustrator has this but honestly I have to guess every time because the tools are not clear. I don't even want to try remember them even after 20 years using illustrator.
I have no problem with the icons, I have 20+ years with the program as well and it's automatic - no confusion here.



  • Type control - Leading, kerning, rotation, hyper/sub, path follow, arc - So simple and clean and efficient for sign work
Except for certain Fonts, I especially dig Flexi’s ability be the size you specify. So many code related signs have a certain size they require, I have to draw a square in Corel or illustrator (well I do it in Flexi to make sure) and size up to the box



  • Resize tool - Again working in scale is so much more efficient in my mind so taking a photo of say a box van, create box over the known area, click resize on the box with scale all enabled, enter the real life size and hit enter. Bam! 100% scale in a second. Efficient AF.
Are you talking working in 100% scale? You can do that in Cadtracker using the CadTools plug-in… (yeah I know, it’s a chunk of change - but so is Flexi)



  • Auto nest - Please do I really need to explain the efficiency of this function?
I agree - True, but it in my opinion Flexi is a production program that you can happen to design in. I have no need for it.



  • Step and repeat - Customer calls, How much for a 6" x 5" decal? No problem, know sheet size, enter rectangle 6x5, click Step and Repeat, enter x a y repeat, spacing and bang you have your quantity up vs your sheet price.
I agree - You can do that with CadTools step and repeat - you can also do that with Illustrator but it is a slight inconvenience.



  • Select by Attribute - So amazing. Select ALL and any specific colors, effects, types, strokes, anything in one click! Eat that illustrator!
Illustrator does do it, just not as efficiently...



  • Filter by... Same as Select by attribute but in one click you can filter out specific colors... leaving you with just what you want to edit
I agree - Same as above



  • Trace - Flexi for the longest time owned this market but it has lost it's edge to Illustrator. Still, for a fast and easy trace I will use flexi. For more complicated and higher fidelity traces I use Image Trace from illustrator.
I'm pretty happy with Illustrators trace, though I rarely trace, I almost always redraw.



  • Rip and Print (I know it's only available for specific packages) Integrated printer and plotter with a massive library of device drivers. I find it extremely efficient to output without having to export jobs. With Rip and Print you can output panels, cut jobs, and contour cut prints directly from within Flexi without ever leaving the design software. You still have the option to use Production Manager like any other rip but there's no need to do so.
I agree - True, but it in my opinion Flexi is a production program that you can happen to design in - this is why I output using Flexi-Sign. I have no need for it



  • Contour cut. Dynamically create contour cuts numerically, optically, inside holes, no holes, curves, corners, inline or outline based on the totality of the object. Quickly assign multiple contour cut colors for individual contour cut attributes such as force, speed, condition presets.... all from within Flexi.
I agree - True, but it in my opinion Flexi is a production program that you can happen to design in - this is why I output using Flexi-Sign - I will do some of this production in Illustrator though just for the mere fact I have the file open. I have no need for it



  • Adobe transparency effects (Flexi 10 up I think) I use this daily. Efficient way to create blending effects
I prefer Illustrators, but mostly because we design more than signs. I can design in Illustrator and depending on the artwork application, send them to the specific applications I need it for.



  • Serialization - Not the most polished function but super amazing to have
I do this in InDesign - there is a way to do it in Illustrator but its awkward...



  • Open Illustrator files - Does an excellent job so long as the art is contained within the artboard and layers are not hidden or locked. Super efficient if you can avoid the Illustrator open/export/save as dance.
In my experience - the same is not true for saving/exporting out of Flexi - 2 things about sign software - too many effects, you will lose some if not all… proprietary extensions, the OP is in trouble because her Anagraph is jacked up and she is stuck with useless files with a now obsolete extension. I have used nearly every sign software made - ALWAYS save an extra file as a universal file extension (.ai, .eps, .pdf)



  • Color pallets. Add persistent and frequently used colors to your pallet. Name them, adjust them, map them... It's the best. Just double click a color from a color book like Pantone and rename it and bam, it's now available as that name forever while leaving the original it's original name. Just be sure to save your modified color table manually or upon closing.
Odd, I do this in Illustrator…



  • Guide control - First, Illustrator sucks at this. Why would you want guides to lock as a default? Don't answer. Anyway, drag a guide in just like any other design suite, but double click it and rotate freely, numerically, or whatever. Guides just rock and it's something Flexi has got beautifully right.
So I prefer my guides locked - I can have Illustrator open with guides unlocked - how? I ALWAYS design within my title block. That title block is saved with certain tools saves for that certain workflow.



  • Alignment and distribute - Again, illustrator has this all wrong. Flexi has it all right. One word - Hierarchy. Align to parent object, page, guide groups, the universe... No switching settings it just does it. Align and Distribute just works. Efficient.
I agree - though I do rely use align to selected object



  • Overprint - Screw you illustrator. Flexi gives you access to overprint all the time, and not in some far-off pane like in Illustrator
I agree - True, but it in my opinion Flexi is a production program that you can happen to design in - when it’s time for overprint, I will open the slightly annoying window.



CONS:

  • Not 64 bit!!!! Come on SAi!!!! It's 2018!!!!!! - Illustrator, and Corel are kicking your ***. Flexi only uses one processor core so be sure it's a fast one. It also doesn't give two flips about your video card. Lame
Agree



  • Updated tool icons. I started with Flexi 7x and so with every new install I retro select the 7x workspace because the icons are smaller and make more sense visually. They have higher contrast for the effect when active vs the monotone and larger current icons.
Agree



  • Lack of "Wrap around object" for text.
Agree


  • Lack of tab control. Really? I am mean really.
Agree



  • Paragraph control. It's there but it's weak
Makes no difference to me since I only treat Flexi as a production program


  • Multiple pages. None. It should. Freehand had this in 1999. Illustrator now allows multiple artboards. This is cool.
Agree about Flexi, but Illustrator has had the ability for Multiple Pages since I have used it exclusively (around 1996) - probably longer



  • Crappy rendering - This has gotten much better since my 7x days but still Illustrator renders the screen smooth and beautifully whereas Flexi is harsh or super flat depending on whether you have Soft Proof on.
Agree


  • Crashes without auto recovery. Adobe kills it here
Agree but crashes suck anyway, but since I only use it for production, I never pushed it hard enough to crash


  • Does not save environmental changes unless you exit the application (Color tables are an exception because you can manually save) so when you crash you loose things like last open location, tool options, and user initiated defaults.
Agree - but I have a master template with my preferences where I want them



  • Does not open or export Corel files. Just accept that Corel is a player SAi and add the support please
I’m not a big Corel user anymore it would be nice if they all played better together



  • Weak sauce for PLT files. Corel is king
I agree but can’t remember when I got a .PLT file - at least 14 years?



  • No import location tool. I use a lot of frequently used art elements and unlike Freehand there is no way to quickly access your library of art. Whats strange is that in 7x it at least allowed you to have a persistent "Last location" for "Import" separate from "Open" location. This effectively served the same purpose as Freehand's library. With the current version of Flexi both Open and Import share the same last opened location. Lame
Agree, used to drive me loco



  • Color book selection. This realllllllly sucks. In Illustrator one simply needs to type the name (Number for pantone) in the search field and you can quickly access the color for use, but in flexi you must either hover over the pallet (if you have it open) or scroll to the color in the Fill/Stroke editor. If you have multiple color tables open then it can be a challenge. This needs to be added and I can't believe after all these years they have yet to add it.
Agree



  • Output gremlins. I am sure this is true for many rips but lets say you have trailer wrap with ten panels. You let flexi handle the paneling through the Rip and Print or direct job through Production Manger, but on panel three your art doesn't contain any bitmaps or gradients but shares similar spot/rgb/cmyk colors like a stripe going through the entire length. Despite you sending the job all at once your #3 panel may print your colors differently forcing your to reprint, repeat the same output and frustratingly scratch your head until you finally just manually change the colors. This is a problem with rendering intent. I have no solution but to rasterize all large jobs prior to ripping. This defeats the purpose of Rip and Print in my mind.
I only design so not an issue...
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
spooledUP7 said:
I do not disagree with your perspective and that's why I added the caveat like I did. My statement of opinion goes like this; If the industry you have chosen to work in - say "Creative" for example - requires a procedurally specific tool (Ilustrator/photoshop/premier) which must be compatible with the industry's production flow, then you're better to learn that tool or else you will be at a disadvantage to your competition.

My point is the computer graphics industry really has no singular "industry standard" of software or hardware. The nearest thing we have to that is Adobe Photoshop (not Illustrator). There are dozens of niche industries that fall into the computer graphics field, each with its own software/hardware/OS-platform conventions. It's not all Adobe/Apple-centric despite popular culture continuing to paint that picture. For instance a lot of high end 3D modeling/animation work is done on Windows or Linux boxes. The most powerful workstation graphics boards currently available can't run on Apple hardware (partly because Apple hasn't made a real workstation CPU tower in years).

The sign industry is a pretty unique niche in computer graphics. It has numerous industry-specific computer applications not taught in any art school (much less any hands-on skills, like wrapping vehicles or bending neon). No single vinyl cutting application or routing table application ever became standard in this industry. It's just like the situation that existed with many Mac-based design studios back in the day: Illustrator versus Freehand, QuarkXpress vs PageMaker, etc. No two shops used all the same plug-ins, extensions, etc. The sign industry is developing its own sub-niche categories, such as shops that concentrate on wrapping vehicles or an outfit that specializes in motion graphics for LED signs.

If someone is out job hunting his portfolio and work experience has to be the biggest selling point. If he's looking at getting into a specific niche then it's only natural he would need to boost his software/hardware knowledge for what that industry niche uses. Adobe Illustrator certainly may be one of those tools. But it's likely the candidate will have to learn something new.

And then for those of us who already have jobs, we have to update our skills for the "just in case" scenario. Things keep changing. It's getting more important to know how to write HTML code, JavaScript and use stuff like WordPress to land a job in an ad agency or design house.
 

spooledUP7

New Member
My point is the computer graphics industry really has no singular "industry standard" .....

This is true if I were arguing for the sake of the computer graphics industry but I am not. I have been very specific with my categorization of users, both in my original topic theme, and the subsequent conversation about the "Creative" industry. Specifically I am addressing "Vector Art Creation" and "Creative" industry.
 

SightLine

║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
Flexi Production Manager (the RIP itself) can run multiple threads by the way....


Aside from that and back on topic. I have been trying to get Adobe to do something about the artboard size since 2012. I've even had one of their developers and senior engineers get in touch about it at one point. No idea why they still have not fixed it. There is no logical reason for them not to if every other software can do it other than it is really really deep into the oldest and deepest parts of the code which could be a potential disaster to try and fix.

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1003569

Almost 100,000 views since I posted that! Wow - been a long time since I went and saw that old post at the Adobe site. I've since just given up. Worked at scale for so long that it is what it is and the fact that we are still running CS6 because we are so far still refusing to rent 5 licenses forever. So with that, I know that even if they did fix it, that they would certainly not go back and change the artboard and canvas limits in CS6 anyways. CS6 does everything we need and even if we get a customer file that CS6 chokes on, we can just open that in Flexi and than export it if we do want to work on it in Illy.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
There is no logical reason for them not to if every other software can do it other than it is really really deep into the oldest and deepest parts of the code which could be a potential disaster to try and fix.

I'm inclined to think this. Of course, not being able to see the code, it's hard to say for sure.

It could be just as simple as they are going to do what they want to do and as long as they don't loose too much revenue, they aren't going to change (which doesn't appear to have happened). Not everyone is affected by canvas limitation. I'm not. I would have to segment my designs for the embroidery machines at far smaller sizes then I would have to even begin to start worrying about my Ai canvas size.

we are still running CS6 because we are so far still refusing to rent 5 licenses forever.

I would say that this would affect more people then the art board limitation. At least it affects me, while the art board limitation does not. I imagine that there are others that that situation applies to as well. I don't think Adobe will change that.

It is what it is. Either pucker up and accept it or seek an alternative solution. I have other ways (and open source at that) of reading new(er) Ai files that will choke my CS6 and earlier versions of Ai that will allow me to either bring it into my copy of Ai just fine or allow it to be used in a different program.

The most powerful workstation graphics boards currently available can't run on Apple hardware (partly because Apple hasn't made a real workstation CPU tower in years).

We may define workstation computers differently. My prerequisite is that has a Xeon processor and ECC ram. Based on that, Apple does have a "real" workstation out there now. Now, as far as are there more powerful versions out there compared to what Apple allows you to configure for, that's something else entirely different.


For instance a lot of high end 3D modeling/animation work is done on Windows or Linux boxes.

Most on here know I'm a huge fan of Linux, I run it on all my machines and VM Windows, but Linux does have areas (included what you mention) that there are inefficiencies and the full power isn't being utilized as well for certain applications. And it's a Linux kernel issue in some instances compared to a program specific issue (not all the time, not even most of the time, but it is there).
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Regarding art board size limits, I'm convinced if Adobe does offer a larger maximum art board size in an upcoming version of Adobe Illustrator the feature will come with a serious drawback: backward compatibility. The current 227" X 227" max art board size is supported back only so many previous versions of Illustrator. Save an .AI file down to a 1990's era version (with more universal import support across other applications) and that 227" X 227" max art board will drop to 120" X 120" (or smaller). Loads of other features disappear too.

Chances are between slim and none that Adobe would offer any updates to legacy versions of Illustrator to boost max art board size.

WildWestDesigns said:
We may define workstation computers differently. My prerequisite is that has a Xeon processor and ECC ram. Based on that, Apple does have a "real" workstation out there now. Now, as far as are there more powerful versions out there compared to what Apple allows you to configure for, that's something else entirely different.

The definition of "workstation" can be a subjective thing regardless if the machine is running an Intel Core CPU versus a Xeon CPU, or multiples of either CPU type.

I merely stated the fact that Apple no longer makes any computers that can run the world's most powerful graphics boards, such as the nVidia Quadro GV100. The most powerful graphics boards for gaming won't work either. They physcially cannot fit in anything Apple makes. The situation is similar on the notebook platform. In the past Apple frequently touted its latest, greatest computers as being faster/more powerful than anything else. They can't make such claims now.

One can buy a little round Mac Pro "tower" or an "iMac Pro" with a Xeon CPU and ECC memory. But those computers top out with mid-range graphics boards. Apple could have pursued one solution for this by copying what Alienware offers: an outboard "graphics amplifier" box for desktops and notebooks. Apple's executives don't appear to be interested in that. They have the philosophy of selling computers as portable fashion accessories to go with an iPhone™. They're pursuing the thin and elegant ideology to a fault. For example, Apple's newest top of the line Mac Book Pro has serious throttling problems with the Core i9 CPU due to heat building up in the thin notebook chassis. The high priced notebook can end up running slower than a previous generation Core i7 MacBook Pro. That makes the high end notebook a huge waste of money.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I merely stated the fact that Apple no longer makes any computers that can run the world's most powerful graphics boards,

You also said partly because Apple doesn't make a "real" workstation.

One can buy a little round Mac Pro "tower" or an "iMac Pro" with a Xeon CPU and ECC memory. But those computers top out with mid-range graphics boards.

Like I said, while they do make workstations, how powerful you can get with what Apple allows you to configure for is something else.

Apple could have pursued one solution for this by copying what Alienware offers: an outboard "graphics amplifier" box for desktops and notebooks.

There is always the eGPU thing. I think there is one that does work for Macs out of the box, there are others that have workarounds.

For example, Apple's newest top of the line Mac Book Pro has serious throttling problems with the Core i9 CPU due to heat building up in the thin notebook chassis. The high priced notebook can end up running slower than a previous generation Core i7 MacBook Pro. That makes the high end notebook a huge waste of money.

Is that really a surprise though considering they can't even get engineering of a keyboard right with the new silicon membrane that was there for both protection as well as noise reduction doesn't really protect as much as one thought?

Don't forget about a kernel bug that caused an overheating issue that it had in one line of laptops. And that happened without even stressing the laptop at all.

And while we are at it, had the su(do) password issue at the launch of High Sierra.

For things that are just "supposed to work" there are issues.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
There is always the eGPU thing. I think there is one that does work for Macs out of the box, there are others that have workarounds.

The companies who make the highest end graphics boards still have to create drivers that would work under OSX. They're not doing that with any of these large, high wattage graphics boards. They're only making drivers for Windows and certain builds of Linux. I don't see that changing as long as Apple is not manufacturing and sustaining a full size desktop tower product. If anything Apple is going the opposite direction: their update for the little round Mac Pro thingie isn't a full tower computer. It's just another iMac, one painted darker that costs about twice as much.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
The companies who make the highest end graphics boards still have to create drivers that would work under OSX. They're not doing that with any of these large, high wattage graphics boards. They're only making drivers for Windows and certain builds of Linux.

There aren't that many true builds of Linux as it is. I would be willing to bet that they support far more then one would think. I know my Lenovo workstation desktop (that is using the humble GTX 980 card) only says it has support for RH and Debian. The thing is, especially with Debian support, that means Debian and all it's derivatives, which would include Ubuntu and all of Ubuntu's derivatives. With RH, I think the big ones are RHEL, Fedora (which I like, but EOL cycle is a killer), CentOS, Oracle Linux, Scientific Linux etc. Suse and Arch tend not to be supported as much (I think due to their rolling release nature). But really there are only truly 4 or maybe 5 (just can't think of the 5th one) different builds of Linux. Everything else is mainly what else they package with it (DE, toolkits etc). With Arch though, you can get support.

If they just make the drivers as RUN files, that would bypass the need to package it within the repos. Don't have to go through the repos. It's a mistake to think that you have to. Most of my programs were installed either as RUN files, they are AppImages or binary archives (AppImage and binary archives are portable versions).

I don't see that changing as long as Apple is not manufacturing and sustaining a full size desktop tower product. If anything Apple is going the opposite direction: their update for the little round Mac Pro thingie isn't a full tower computer. It's just another iMac, one painted darker that costs about twice as much.

I think Apple is going to a boutique operating system. That's just my opinion though.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
I think Apple is going to a boutique operating system. That's just my opinion though.

Apple's OSX has already been a "boutique" OS for many years. The problem is, lately, the OS and computer product line is getting very murky at telling customers what industry niche it serves better than anyone else. And Apple under-cuts itself in the casual computing market with the iPad product line. It's a lot more comfortable to sit on the couch with an iPad in your lap than a notebook computer.
 
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