Rant Help Make Our Lives Better: Reform Illustrator's Canvas Size Limit

[shoresigns]

I have at least 20 "huuge" and massive (and I think very convincing) arguments as to why Flexi outperforms illustrator in vector graphic art creation (even when adding in a illustrator friendly output to the workflow process), and if anyone is curious will gladly start another rant thread for discussion. I think I've ruffled enough feathers for now.

I'll bite. I'm curious what these 20 huge advantages are in Flexi vs. Illustrator. We used to use Flexi here but we switched shortly after I started, so I didn't get to learn much of it.

Feel free to start a new thread though, and link to it here.

 

[myront]

Why should the government get any credit for teaching you CorelDRAW if you taught yourself? BTW, I wish the government was actually big on using CorelDRAW. The reality is they love them some PowerPoint. That is absolutely the case with the military...

The USAF did away with the "graphic design" career field 2 years after I retired. Now the only software that's authorized for use that is even remotely close to a design program is MS Office and yes every joe thinks they can do their own designs and bring them to us for print.

 

[Rick]

About two versions ago they added an opt out to never see the "zoom" message" again (good move)
You've had the ability to customize the decimal place up to 6 for probably 20 years or more
You can write your own custom macros AND assign any shortcut key combo you desire (adobe only allows F keys)
Corel allows multiple signs on one doc -doesn't have to be on the "artboard" / Page
Which of these tools would the average person most likely know how to use.
View attachment 135074 .

p.s. I'm self taught courtesy of the U.S. Government who, by the way, uses corel

The USAF did away with the "graphic design" career field 2 years after I retired. Now the only software that's authorized for use that is even remotely close to a design program is MS Office and yes every joe thinks they can do their own designs and bring them to us for print.

Huh?

 

[myront]

Huh?

What don't you understand? The military may have lots of different software programs but it's limited to your specialty. My office had Corel and Adobe (on the shelf) as well as MS Office. No one else is authorized to have the those on a government computer. Just like we couldn't get authorization for AutoCad as it did not pertain to our job code. MS Office is the only one authorized for every pc no matter what job code you had. The military doesn't train anyone in graphic design anymore. Most think they know enough to get by and they may get by with PPT slides but know nothing about the print industry.

 

[Rick]

What don't you understand? The military may have lots of different software programs but it's limited to your specialty. My office had Corel and Adobe (on the shelf) as well as MS Office. No one else is authorized to have the those on a government computer. Just like we couldn't get authorization for AutoCad as it did not pertain to our job code. MS Office is the only one authorized for every pc no matter what job code you had. The military doesn't train anyone in graphic design anymore. Most think they know enough to get by and they may get by with PPT slides but know nothing about the print industry.

And still makes no sense...

 

[myront]

And still makes no sense...

Does to those "in the need to know"

 

[Rick]

Does to those "in the need to know"

You need a bigger box of crayons....

 

[Johnny Best]

Can you buy CorelDraw or Illustrator at the BX?

 

[myront]

Can you buy CorelDraw or Illustrator at the BX?

Nope. At least not the ones here.

 

[Johnny Best]

Has been years since being in a PX or BX. Bought a Polaroid camera for my father last time in one.

 

[myront]

Has been years since being in a PX or BX. Bought a Polaroid camera for my father last time in one.

Veterans can now buy from PX/BX online.

 

[petepaz]

i am not losing sleep over this one, nor am i going to storm the gates of adobe head quarters but i would be ok if they increased the size of the canvas. not sure unlimited is necessary but even if they doubled what's available now it would be nice. i do scale everything but sometimes when doing large vehicle graphics i find it easier working at 1:1. i can lay out all views of the vehicle at actual size.

 

[Bobby H]

I am not saying Corel users cannot be Creative users, nor am I saying Corel users are not creative users (confusing yet?), but "Creatives" DO NOT use Corel for their primary design application, because if they do then they are ignored (unless the position requires it).

That's still sounds a lot like, "real professionals use Adobe Illustrator." And it reminds me of the worn out stereotype, "real professionals use Apple computers." If someone is using computer graphics software/hardware not approved by the fashion police that worker is seen as not being a legit artist, graphic designer or "creative."

Not every creative work place is the same; the work places don't all run the same hardware, software or operating system. Not every creative worker has the same process either. For instance, you prefer designing in Flexi. Personally I don't have Flexi on my computer anymore; I don't need it (we do have 3 licenses of it on other production machines hooked directly to vinyl cutters and a routing table).

If someone is hunting for a graphic design staff job at firms likely to have an all-Mac-based work flow then, yes, it would be a good idea for his resume to list proficiency with OSX and Adobe Illustrator, among other bullet points. His chances aren't going to be as good if his resume only lists CorelDRAW and Windows experience. On the other hand if his portfolio of work is outstanding most firms worth a hoot will look past the computer fashion nonsense and give the guy a shot. Likewise, any hack can go buy a Mac, load Adobe Illustrator on it and then start passing himself off as a "graphic artist." It's no different from someone with no musical talent blowing $5000 on a Gibson Les Paul and expecting to be Jimmy Page just because he has the same brand of instrument.

Ultimately the thing that should matter most is one's portfolio and work experience. Does the job candidate actually have any creative talent? Does he know how to draw, paint, etc? Does he know the fundamentals of graphic design? Can he produce good quality work in a productive amount of time? Can he learn new tools and adapt to our work flow? Can he get the job done?

The sign industry has a decent number of legitimate artists, illustrators and graphic designers. In terms of computer based workflow it is an industry the DOS/Windows platform has always dominated. Any sign company that was around 30+ years ago when all the digital tools (vinyl cutters, routing tables, etc) started arriving was very likely to have CorelDRAW in its arsenal of software. Corel didn't have much competition on the PC platform through most of the 1990's. It has always been a pretty decent drawing program, made even better by the oodles of goodies bundled with it. In the 1990's a sign shop could have been using CASmate, Gerber Graphix Advantage, FlexiSignPro, SignLab or any number of other odd ball tools available then. But most of these shops were also using CorelDRAW. That was a common denominator. It took Adobe until 1997 to release a version of Illustrator that wasn't crap and which had (for the most part) feature parity between its Mac and Windows variants. By that time CorelDRAW already had a huge lead on the Windows platform.

IMHO, Adobe has only been able to chip away at the lead CorelDRAW had in the sign industry via the growth in large format digital printing. Long established sign shops found a greater need to adopt Adobe Photoshop and other Adobe-branded tools, like Illustrator. Digital LED signs increased the need for Photoshop (and other tools like After Effects, Premiere) further. Still, CorelDRAW gets used quite a lot for conventional sign design work.

I imagine there are sign shops established in more recent years that don't use CorelDRAW at all. If someone started a sign company in 2005 he would have had a bigger variety of choices to consider. Any sign company that has been around for more than 25 years is likely to have CorelDRAW running on at least one or more of their design computers.

My office had Corel and Adobe (on the shelf) as well as MS Office. No one else is authorized to have the those on a government computer. Just like we couldn't get authorization for AutoCad as it did not pertain to our job code. MS Office is the only one authorized for every pc no matter what job code you had. The military doesn't train anyone in graphic design anymore. Most think they know enough to get by and they may get by with PPT slides but know nothing about the print industry.

This situation has its pros and cons. We get all kinds of sign work from posts like Fort Sill, Altus AFB and other places within reasonable driving distance because so many military departments/units can't just home-brew their own signs. There's only so much you can do with PowerPoint and an office printer. The downside is we get a lot of poor quality assets. The military may not train anyone in graphic design, but that doesn't stop non-designers from trying to design. On top of all the PPT files, we'll get low resolution images intended for large format printing (yuck) and poorly designed unit crests usually in the form of a JPEG. If you're lucky you might get a WMF (Windows Metafile) with some usable vectors. In the end the sign design you develop may have to hop through multiple levels of deciders before things get finalized. It can be a pain, but the work helps pay the bills.

 

[spooledUP7]

That's still sounds a lot like, "real professionals use Adobe Illustrator." And it reminds me of the worn out stereotype, "real professionals use Apple computers." If someone is using computer graphics software/hardware not approved by the fashion police that worker is seen as not being a legit artist, graphic designer or "creative."

I do not disagree with your perspective and that's why I added the caveat like I did. My statement of opinion goes like this; If the industry you have chosen to work in - say "Creative" for example - requires a procedurally specific tool (Ilustrator/photoshop/premier) which must be compatible with the industry's production flow, then you're better to learn that tool or else you will be at a disadvantage to your competition.

Like I said in my post before, I expected to ruffle some feathers and I am reiterating this because what I said does sounds elitist and ideological, and perhaps I should have explained my perspective better prior to hitting Post. "Creative" is an actual job description and not a virtue in this example. To be "creative" and to be a "Creative" are not the same thing. Of course there are people who are capable of using any platform to express and accomplish their creativity, and if Corel Draw rose as the dominate application for "Creative" jobs then that's the platform I would be referring to as the de facto industry tool.

I understand what you are saying with respect to the effective weight of one's portfolio over their tool of choice, but as I just said it is the industry which set's the standards and to be competitive it behooves the enlistees to conform to those standards. Outliers will always exist, but for the masses, most will choose to conform. If I were a welder in a welding company I would expect to use tools which are widely accepted as standard equipment set by both my employer and my employer's client for purpose of compatibility and efficiency across the board. I would expect to be at a disadvantage of employment if my tools failed to meet the company or client's standards despite my capacity to work equally as well with my own tools. Let's say I was hired with my tools because I'm that good, but now my employer must supply me with non common supplies or adjust their procedures to insure a uniform outcome. For several reasons this option is less efficient (for everyone) than if I were to be a great welder using standard tools.

I am not saying Illustrator is the most efficient tool, because I hardly believe it is, but when you factor in the universality value then this tool's efficiency score dramatically rises making it a more profitable option over a mixed environment.

I think the whole "Mac" and "Adobe" elitist thing is ridiculous. I love PC's over Mac, and I love Flexi over Illustrator, but like it or not the "Creative" industry does. Luckily I am proficient in both Mac and Illustrator and I will happily use both of them for the right pay.

 

[Rick]

Echoing Bobby H's comments, what I want to see in a resume is that they have practical experience on how a sign is made/designed - I'm not talking about just promotional sign design, but interior and exterior architectural. I want them to understand the process of design and they can design in imperial and metric scale... I don't care what program they use, the portfolio has to be very good. When someone comes to me about getting into this business, I always tell them, find another line of work... really now, how much does a "promotional" sign designer make in this business? It's only slightly better as an architectural sign designer and you have a lot more learning to overcome and it takes a while to become a deign director - where the good money is at. Anything above that, and you usually need a degree from certain schools specializing in EGD - but it usually pays a lot more. I've been every type of sign designer and had to adapt to hand drafting, then to computer, with every program and production software that came down the road. I ended up with my current configuration because that is what works best for my workflow and I can still send out files to anyone using any software. If I had to re-enter the workforce and the company used Corel, it's no problem because I'm just as good at Corel and I am at Illustrator... just pay me. If I had to design in full scale - pay me... hell I can still hand draw a sign.... pay me. Also, when I tell people what software to learn on, yeah I will say Creative Cloud - you have more opportunities... but it's the software in your head that you need to work on. If you can learn Illustrator, you can learn Corel... but I always tell them, stay away from automation and learn the principles of design and form first... too many times I see designers with 20+ years experience who actually have 2 years of experience repeated 10 times. In my viewpoint, unless it's production related, automation stunts creativity... though most signs are not design, it's layout... if thats the case, hit your buttons and move on...

I was tortured by Adobe/Mac elitist designers back in the day. I switched from Windows/Corel to Apple/Illustrator around 1997... not because I wanted to, but I had too. I used to go home and design at night and bring it into work till I mastered Illustrator, by 1999 I was all in with Mac and Illustrator because that is what they required. Nearly all EGD design firms use that, but my Corel experience helped with dealing with sign shops that used that exclusively. So I know the capabilities. But it's not the software, it's the monkey using it. Some monkeys are dumber and less skilled than others...

I just recently posted a list of freelance sign designers, I think nearly all of them are Corel Users, and nearly all of them have been doing it for years. Some are really good designers, some I wouldn't trust with an marker and a sheet of paper, and he writes for an industry magazine....

Every time an Illustrator thread comes up, the same nitpicky elitist Corel clowns that have no real argument, show up to pi$$ in the punch bowl... I remind myself, after visiting their websites/work, that skill in software and a plethora of scripts and short cuts does not a sign designer make.

Any monkey can learn software, not everyone takes the time to learn design...

Just because it sells, does not mean you are good at it.... (a lot of people bought a Yugo, Pacer and Gremlin, is that who you are designing for?)

To stay on topic, it makes no difference about the canvas size as I have to design in scale, but given the choice and if it was accurate, a larger canvas size would be great so I can send files at full size to sign shops.

 

[Johnny Best]

Can someone pm me when they make the bigger size in Illustrator, it would be nice in the near future. Too much reading these posts for me on here. I do agree with Rick on one subject..."pay me", good war cry!
I picture Rick riding his horse back and forth in front of his men as they shout that slogan before storming the Adobe headquarters.

 

[Rick]

Can someone pm me when they make the bigger size in Illustrator, it would be nice in the near future. Too much reading these posts for me on here. I do agree with Rick on one subject..."pay me", good war cry!
I picture Rick riding his horse back and forth in front of his men as they shout that slogan before storming the Adobe headquarters.

My Valiant Steed!

 

[Johnny Best]

You also have those Corel clowns catapulting punchpiss balloons over the walls. I would draw it but my time was taken up with another post on digeridoo videos, it's Friday.

 

[spooledUP7]

Every time an Illustrator thread comes up, the same nitpicky elitist Corel clowns that have no real argument, show up to pi$$ in the punch bowl... I remind myself, after visiting their websites/work, that skill in software and a plethora of scripts and short cuts does not a sign designer make.

I haven't been on here long enough to see many Illustrator threads, but for sure, this one has been like honey for a few Corel vs the world crew. It's sad to me, just like in politics and world views that so many people are willing to dismiss and impede any discussions of ideas or topics which do not align with their ideology. It's a fascinating phenomenon for sure.

I just recently posted a list of freelance sign designers, I think nearly all of them are Corel Users, and nearly all of them have been doing it for years. Some are really good designers, some I wouldn't trust with an marker and a sheet of paper, and he writes for an industry magazine....

That's an interesting observation which certainly flies in the face of what I am saying, and I would be curious as to what the listing position said. If your target prospect was for sign industry experience then I would suspect a heavy percentage of Corel users for sure, but if you were trolling in the Ad agency waters I would expect mostly AI users responding. If you still have the listing I would love to see it and perhaps change my perspective.

To stay on topic, it makes no difference about the canvas size as I have to design in scale, but given the choice and if it was accurate, a larger canvas size would be great so I can send files at full size to sign shops.

I think you're the only one within this thread who has fully digested both sides of the "Scalers" vs. "[HASHTAG]#abolish277[/HASHTAG]" camps and came out exactly with my message was meant to portray. Yes we can scale, but given the choice which way would you choose, scale or no scale?

Any, I agree with you on pretty much all points you have made. Well said.

 

[Rick]

You also have those Corel clowns catapulting punchpiss balloons over the walls. I would draw it but my time was taken up with another post on digeridoo videos, it's Friday.

Hard to beat a vinyl core digeridoo...