home printing business, 3dmuralls wallpapers, posters and anything in between.

[Biker Scout]

My bridwalk made plenty of sense to me... it was a stream of consciousness ramblings of an "old f*rt"

Anyway, I've been helping out OP through PM anyway. This topic is just something to do to pass the time while I await delivery of some vinyl.

 

[GAC05]

Mouse it seems you have evolved a little:

http://ecomouselv.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/time-for-action-not-words/#more-5

Truly, this is a time for action and not words. We don’t need anymore false hopes and empty promises by our so-called leaders. If we want our country to be great again, we need to turn our attention inward and build upon the success of our relatives and ancestors. I’m talking about a nation of builders, tinkerers, inventors, thinkers and doers. You know what made our nation great several times throughout our short and illustrious history? It was manufacturing, building and inventing. Just look to our recent technological rise from out of our World War II factories to the great Space Race between two super powers. We did those great things because we wanted to, we did them because we could. Now what is our current generation’s legacy going to look like? We invented the internet, and outsourced nearly every job any able body American would have taken. If we didn’t outsource, we over regulated and mismanaged some of our greatest assets as a nation; our self-reliance and independence.


wayne k
guam usa

 

[Biker Scout]

I think that's just it, Gino... anyone who has a copy of Photoshop thinks they are designers. Anybody with a plotter thinks they are sign makers. While, crappy work will only hurt them and their reputation. But a lot of times that kind of subpar work gets passed off as "Professional Quality" makes the whole industry look bad as a whole. When someone walks into your shop and has already been burned by the flea market guy, can't fathom paying anymore, because, what... "You pushed some buttons" (Which is why I don't let people watch me work anymore) Gotta keep some mystery behind the curtain, in order to show some "value" as to what they are getting and when you show them the price they don't pass out on the floor. They appreciate the professionalism, the extra mile, the firm handshake. It's how I build lifelong clients instead of just customers.

 

[Biker Scout]

GAC05, if you knew the things I was up to in my studio you'd be inspired by the fact that I've rebuild my business from nothing since the time of that post. I was sleeping on a friends couch when I came up with the concept of Eco Mouse. I'm developing some really great products that I truly think will make an impact. There is a secret link on my website that previews some of the items I've got working on in the shop.

I kinda fell back on the design and sign stuff to make ends meet. But I've attracted all my equipment through seer willpower and thought. I have a new 1.8m printer and laminator on the way, after outsourcing for over a year. I've got a huge production style printer sitting here that I just made materialize based on my word and reputation. Paid for, by someone else. I'm living proof that you can do anything you want if you put your mind to it. I've not updated my blog in a long time, because I think what I'm onto now should possibly go into a book or a series on how to make your life anything. As it's still a work in progress I don't think I'm yet to a place where I can share everything. But real close!

 

[Gino]

I think that's just it, Gino... anyone who has a copy of Photoshop thinks they are designers. Anybody with a plotter thinks they are sign makers. While, crappy work will only hurt them and their reputation. But a lot of times that kind of subpar work gets passed off as "Professional Quality" makes the whole industry look bad as a whole. When someone walks into your shop and has already been burned by the flea market guy, can't fathom paying anymore, because, what... "You pushed some buttons" (Which is why I don't let people watch me work anymore) Gotta keep some mystery behind the curtain, in order to show some "value" as to what they are getting and when you show them the price they don't pass out on the floor. They appreciate the professionalism, the extra mile, the firm handshake. It's how I build lifelong clients instead of just customers.

Well, you've got a point, but your focus again, is wrong. If someone has gone to a hack for signs, truck lettering or whatever and got burnt...... why do you want to entertain the idea of trying to please someone who has already proved they are stoopid and looking for price only ?? If someone comes into our shop and tells me their sad story and expects the same kinda treatment, I tell them immediately, it ain't gonna happen. I'm very blunt and tell them they've been snookered. We can give them quality and service, but price will be competitive.

Anyone has three choices in making purchases at our shop and pretty much anywhere US0fA. Price, quality and service. You can actually pick two of the three, but you can't have all three. If someone picks price and quality, they wait forever. If someone picks price and service, they get whatever I give them. If someone picks quality and service, they get my respect and we do a terrific job. They'll get a well made, long-lasting sign which is priced very competitively. I don't want the tire kickers and burnt hack customers, so their knowing of a higher price generally helps out in that respect.


Had a guy in here the beginning of December wanting his signs refurbished. Seems there was a new owner take-over and the original name had to be removed. He wanted all new signs and I gave him a price and he said, he had three other quotes for far less. I said, I could go that low, but the sign will only last two or three years..... is that what you want ?? That's all the other guy's signs will last at that price, too. Ended up doing some overlays and it looks better than any of the other shop's proposals. Did the job and while finishing it up, he told me about all the other work he needs done. Met with him last week and he has s few trade show displays he needs completely revamped and new signs around the interior of the store.

So, while a few thousand upfront got him what he wanted, he now needs to spend an additional $4 or $5 thousand in displays and another maybe $2,000 in little signs inside. All nice filler work for January......... and everyone's happy.
​

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I think that's just it, Gino... anyone who has a copy of Photoshop thinks they are designers. Anybody with a plotter thinks they are sign makers. While, crappy work will only hurt them and their reputation. But a lot of times that kind of subpar work gets passed off as "Professional Quality" makes the whole industry look bad as a whole. When someone walks into your shop and has already been burned by the flea market guy, can't fathom paying anymore, because, what... "You pushed some buttons" (Which is why I don't let people watch me work anymore) Gotta keep some mystery behind the curtain, in order to show some "value" as to what they are getting and when you show them the price they don't pass out on the floor. They appreciate the professionalism, the extra mile, the firm handshake. It's how I build lifelong clients instead of just customers.

There is a difference between keeping mystery in what you do and showmanship. When a customer sits down and watches me work ... I don't explain to them what I'm doing ... they can see my hands fly as I manipulate points, fly between programs and get their design to a roughed stated. All the mean while keeping some chit chat on unrelivent topics flowing. If letting the customers watch you work prevents them from being clients who respect what you do ... that is a problem my friend. Do you not let them watch you do an install as well? I mean ... there has to be some mystery, correct? I mean heck, you could just tarp the whole area and do a big reveal when you are done every time ... TADA! MYSTERY! You can sell popcorn and everything!

 

[Billct2]

Wow a lot of verbage to wander through...but heres a quote from Bob that I can't let go

No one is harmed in any way by bad signage

maybe that's true for for the sticker dealers but for the rest of us that actually install signs that is definately not true.
Poorly installed signs can fall on people and hurt or kill them.

 

[Biker Scout]

A poorly design sign can actually make a business fail too. There is more than one aspect to consider when taking on the responsibility of someone else's image and reputation.

 

[Bly]

Most of these posts are TL;DR.

 

[Biker Scout]

Thanks for that insightful commentary. It totally added to the discussion. I'll bet you sit at the kids table at parties. :Big Laugh

 

[GAC05]

No one's life, health, safety, or freedom is affected in any real way by a sign maker. Perhaps it makes you feel better to attempt to hang your hat on the same rack as those who do. Other than having it fall on them, which is a construction and not a sign issue, please cite any instance of anyone being harmed by a sign.

Some of the more sensitive among us may be deeply scarred by poor font choice and or bad kerning.....


wayne k
guam usa

 

[Rick]

There are signs where life/safety and freedoms are effected.

ADAAG/ADA
Fire Safety (In California it's Title 19)
Health and Safety Signs for pools, safety and resuscitation
In California we have Prop 65 for cancer causing agents

-- The codes and regulations covering that is enough where they
don't need some special licensing.
-- Sign contractors licenses cover the safety aspect, and some
city's here require a certified welder. In Texas, an electrical sign
design has to be reviewed by a master electrician.
-- Permits cover the safety aspect of larger signs, especially signs
over a certain height that require engineering.

There is enough regulation...

 

[Locals Find!]

Rick, I think the request for regulation was meant to be among ones peers in the industry versus Goverment regulation.

Having a system in place to allow those who actually understand the proper basics of making signs versus hacks like myself is what is needed. I know in Florida I have no real obstacles to stop me from making and installing just about anything. Hell, if I install a sign I constructed myself and install it. The business owner is the one liable for the permits not me.

Sign making is much like locksmithing in this state in so much that if you can sell it you can do it. Regardless of whether or not your actually qualified to scratch your own rear end.

I think it's truly sad that I have to be licensed to sell someone a home but, I can sell you a 25x50 foot sign and suspend it 40 feet in the air and I don't need a special license at all to prove I know what I am doing.

 

[Biker Scout]

And going off that example, it's like the difference between a Realtor® and a real estate agent. They both can sell you a house. But one is more respected in the industry, can command a higher listing price, and you have to pay, test and qualify in order to call yourself a Realtor®

I think we should have something like that. "Well, yeah it's $10 sq. ft. because I'm a 'Sign Crafter®' so you know you are getting the very best in quality, materials and workmanship."

Something like that.

 

[player]

Portfolio.

 

[Fred Weiss]

And going off that example, it's like the difference between a Realtor® and a real estate agent. They both can sell you a house. But one is more respected in the industry, can command a higher listing price, and you have to pay, test and qualify in order to call yourself a Realtor®

I think we should have something like that. "Well, yeah it's $10 sq. ft. because I'm a 'Sign Crafter®' so you know you are getting the very best in quality, materials and workmanship."

Something like that.

Or perhaps something with a little more behind it like THIS?

 

[Fred Weiss]

Rick, I think the request for regulation was meant to be among ones peers in the industry versus Goverment regulation.

Having a system in place to allow those who actually understand the proper basics of making signs versus hacks like myself is what is needed. I know in Florida I have no real obstacles to stop me from making and installing just about anything. Hell, if I install a sign I constructed myself and install it. The business owner is the one liable for the permits not me.

Sign making is much like locksmithing in this state in so much that if you can sell it you can do it. Regardless of whether or not your actually qualified to scratch your own rear end.

I think it's truly sad that I have to be licensed to sell someone a home but, I can sell you a 25x50 foot sign and suspend it 40 feet in the air and I don't need a special license at all to prove I know what I am doing.

You must live in a different State of Florida than I do. In my Florida to install a 25 x 50 foot sign 40 feet in the air requires one to be a licensed state sign contractor or have one in your employ. To become one requires a minimum of two years experience as a foreman in the employ of a licensed state sign contractor before you are even allowed to study for the test and take it. You are correct that there are essentially no requirements to open a sign shop ... but you are limited to making signs and other graphic products. Installation of them requires you to obtain permits on behalf of your client unless the client owns the real estate on which the installation will be done (in which case they may obtain the permits). Such permits, depending on the nature of the work, are subject to the rules of the state, county and municipalities involved including initial approval of plans and engineering, inspection and payment of fees.

Rules for such will vary quite a bit from one jurisdiction to the next on smaller, non-structural jobs. For example, in the City of Lake Worth, a permit and an inspection on completion is required for just putting business hours on a glass door.

Obtaining permits and passing inspections is of great importance. Should a sign fail and cause injury, death or damage in the process, having obtained a permit and passed an inspection will go a long way in clearing the sign contractor of any liability.

 

[bob]

And going off that example, it's like the difference between a Realtor® and a real estate agent. They both can sell you a house. But one is more respected in the industry, can command a higher listing price, and you have to pay, test and qualify in order to call yourself a Realtor®...

Twaddle. The value of a piece of real estate is not determined by the credentials, or lack thereof, of any real estate weenie that might be involved in the sale. The best that someone could do is try, that's try, for a higher commission based on whatever credentials they might be packing. Good luck with that.

Moreover in virtually every state in the USofA, anyone touting themselves as a real estate agent must be licensed by the state. In most states they must be affiliated in some way with a licensed broker.

A property's value is determined by the market, not who's attempting to peddle it.

I think we should have something like that. "Well, yeah it's $10 sq. ft. because I'm a 'Sign Crafter®' so you know you are getting the very best in quality, materials and workmanship."

Something like that.

To which any rational being would respond, once again, with "Good luck with that." For extra credit please show the necessary and sufficient conditions that would support saying such a ridiculous thing.

The world does not need any more licensing, certifications, guilds, associations, etc. Especially in the sign business. Way back before the most of you were born when virtually all signs were hand lettered, you could either do it or you couldn't. Those who couldn't went of and found other ways to occupy their time. Nowadays, with printers, plotters, and digital design, there is the illusion that anyone can do it. The cold hard reality is still the same; either you can do it or you can't. Them what can't soon move on to the next illusion of a free lunch. While they futilely strive at sign making, they do no real harm and they provide some measure of comic relief.

The same can't be said for real estate jivea$$es, feng shui fruitcakes, interior decorators, and a host of other dubious professions. Yet all of these pastimes have licensing requirements in one or more states, as well as self-promotional associations and guilds. You wouldn't want to engage the services of a unqualified feng shui shaman, would you?

Please state concisely exactly what you want to achieve with some sign makers club. Try to use simple declarative sentences. Further explain why any journeyman sign writer would ever want to join such a club. What possible benefit would accrue to them when they receive their official sign makers badge, whistle, and secret decoder ring?

 

[Bly]

The world does not need any more licensing, certifications, guilds, associations, etc. Especially in the sign business. Way back before the most of you were born when virtually all signs were hand lettered, you could either do it or you couldn't. Those who couldn't went of and found other ways to occupy their time. Nowadays, with printers, plotters, and digital design, there is the illusion that anyone can do it. The cold hard reality is still the same; either you can do it or you can't. Them what can't soon move on to the next illusion of a free lunch. While they futilely strive at sign making, they do no real harm and they provide some measure of comic relief.

Oh no. I find myself agreeing with Bob.