Then there are all the posts and threads about laminate not sticking properly to latex...
-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
How Concerned should I be about Gassing Out a print?
- Thread starter Moseye
- Start date
spectrum maine
New Member
i have peeled a van that was (i assume) printed & laminated too quickly. The ink gassed into the paint & was permanently stained.
equippaint
Active Member
Its not from outgassing. Whenever we sandblast something, even the old cut vinyl decals are impregnated into the steel under the paint. Its pretty crazy, bare white steel with fully legible ghosted images. Many times we have to skim body filler over these areas or they telegraph through the new paint.
Active Sign
Sign Guy
If it’s a small print we’ll lay it out and run the heat gun over it a few passes and then laminate. Never had a problem.
Usually we let our prints out gas overnight on a loose roll if we can. Also, we run the the post heat on the printer pretty high temperature.
I had one incident a few years back when we laminated a wrap too soon and the installer was complaining about it being more difficult to install.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Usually we let our prints out gas overnight on a loose roll if we can. Also, we run the the post heat on the printer pretty high temperature.
I had one incident a few years back when we laminated a wrap too soon and the installer was complaining about it being more difficult to install.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CSOCSO
I don't hate paint, I just overlay it.
If you print with solvent you supposed to let it gas out. Have I seen any vinyl or lamination failed because skipping the gas out process? Nope. Never. BUT!
My experience is that some materials especiall 3m 180 vinyls are super crap to install if you don't let it gas out. It softens the glue. Forget about repositioning. It sticks like a mofo and if it touches itself then you are done. Use the right color profiles. They limit the ink what's printed on the vinyl
My experience is that some materials especiall 3m 180 vinyls are super crap to install if you don't let it gas out. It softens the glue. Forget about repositioning. It sticks like a mofo and if it touches itself then you are done. Use the right color profiles. They limit the ink what's printed on the vinyl
AaronSSsignsKC
New Member
If you are a quality printer and care about the customers that pay for the signage you provide I would either buy a latex and never worry about it again or continue to let prints gas out at least 12 hours. It is a scientific fact that a solvent print that has not fully gassed out will fail faster over time than a fully gassed print.
I think it all comes down to the clients you work for how long the signage will be up etc. I just have always operated with the view that I want to be a quality sign shop/printer and customers come to me so they don't have to deal with warrantied failures etc. I make signs to better our industry and our community not rush SHIT out the door but just my two cents.
I think it all comes down to the clients you work for how long the signage will be up etc. I just have always operated with the view that I want to be a quality sign shop/printer and customers come to me so they don't have to deal with warrantied failures etc. I make signs to better our industry and our community not rush SHIT out the door but just my two cents.
equippaint
Active Member
Would you care to back up these "facts" because I smell some fake news.
AaronSSsignsKC
New Member
Ya and before I say this like I mentioned before if you are making yard sign tons on POP etc then fire away lam that stuff right off the printer but doing so can really change the quality of what you are making.
all solvent ink are glycol or glycol ether based so over time the gasses etch into the material, solvent inks take longer than eco solvent prints to actually etch the inks into the printable substrate, if you put a barrier or a laminate over the top of it it can really change that process. The inks do not fully etch into the print media so you get a gummy material that is damn near impossible to install if you are not making yard signs or something that fed-ex makes. It adds time to installs that means money and headaches that could just be avoided by waiting over night to laminate. It is rare that the out gassing will cause a laminate failure.
But like I said it comes down to who you work for the clients you supply signs for, because the main issue with laminating a print before out gassing is that during the out gassing especially in water based inks and you know this if you have ran one the color changes drastically during gassing out. You can run a long run of prints and literally if you laminate some right off the printer and some two hours later there will be a color change. They don't tell you to let the prints out gas just for the fact the laminate can fail it has to do with the whole overall quality of the prints.
all solvent ink are glycol or glycol ether based so over time the gasses etch into the material, solvent inks take longer than eco solvent prints to actually etch the inks into the printable substrate, if you put a barrier or a laminate over the top of it it can really change that process. The inks do not fully etch into the print media so you get a gummy material that is damn near impossible to install if you are not making yard signs or something that fed-ex makes. It adds time to installs that means money and headaches that could just be avoided by waiting over night to laminate. It is rare that the out gassing will cause a laminate failure.
But like I said it comes down to who you work for the clients you supply signs for, because the main issue with laminating a print before out gassing is that during the out gassing especially in water based inks and you know this if you have ran one the color changes drastically during gassing out. You can run a long run of prints and literally if you laminate some right off the printer and some two hours later there will be a color change. They don't tell you to let the prints out gas just for the fact the laminate can fail it has to do with the whole overall quality of the prints.
GaSouthpaw
Profane and profane accessories.
I guess I'm in the minority- I've seen plenty of print/install failures due to not enough outgassing time. It's not that the laminate fails (normally), it's that the gasses migrate the path of least resistance. Once the print is laminated, that least resistance is through the print media, which can (and does) make the adhesive fail, or make it "gummy" where the print stretches too much and then doesn't line up properly.
We do our best to give 48 hours, but will do 24 in a pinch. If the customer wants it quicker and it's not something we can get done on the UV, we let them know we can't offer our normal guarantee.
We do our best to give 48 hours, but will do 24 in a pinch. If the customer wants it quicker and it's not something we can get done on the UV, we let them know we can't offer our normal guarantee.
equippaint
Active Member
You dont know that it failed because of outgassing. We all see media problems on here, contamination or whatever. Just because you had a sign fail doesn't mean anything, that is not proof, fact or whatever you want to call it.
equippaint
Active Member
This is all nonsense. How many people here have messed up a wrap panel and had to reprint and lam right away? That would be the prime evidence of color shift and guess what, doesn't happen. Color shifting is another problem in itself and the reason you flip panels, it exists without lamination. Making adhesive a bit aggressive does happen but so does a hot surface and just higher temperatures in general. It is far from impossible to install though. It eventually settles down too. Are you going to now say that it makes it not stick and leave out that you saw it at 20 below zero?
Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?
New Member
We will let rush job prints outgas until the next workday, so roughly anywhere from 16-24 hours later, laid out on our worktables to dry overnight. We are a small shop and we have a 5' x 9' RollsRoller and two 4 x 8 tables, so we usually have plenty of room if I feel I need to lay something out overnight. For most other prints, I leave them standing on end, loosely rolled and let them outgas for 24-48 hours. In very rare cases, I will laminate a print the same day, but today I actually did have to make a 12" x 12" .080" aluminum sign for a friend that I forgot to print earlier in the week. It has a mostly white background with bright multi-colored lettering. I laid it down on the table with a small fan blowing across it for maybe 2 hours then laminated. I'm sure it will do fine.
A lot of times, what I will do is lay the heaviest inked areas of a print over onto itself, apply pressure with my hand, and pull it away. If I hear the ink even slightly sticking to itself, I'll let it outgas longer. I also run the post heat on our eco-solvent Mimaki pretty high, in my opinion, in the 110-114 degree range. But it allows me to print in 8 or 12 passes, when necessary, and not have black ink rub off onto the back of the carrier sheet as it rolls up onto the take-up reel. We also run a lot of Oracal's profiles and it seems like their factory profiles lay down a lot of ink, at least with dark colors, like black, so I feel the higher heat helps me run my printer more productively.
A while back, I printed a 'skin' for my cell phone case on a scrap piece of Orajet 3951RA. The skull and crossbones design was mostly black ink. I pulled it off the printer, blew the heat gun over it for maybe 60 seconds, laminated it, contour cut it, and stuck it on my phone case. I left it on there for over a year until the laminate was so scratched up I just didn't want it on there anymore. I had only done it mostly as a test to see if going from print to laminate in 2 minutes or less would cause any noticeable issues and I saw none. I even removed it with no heat and maybe 10-20% of the covered area left adhesive residue behind. If I had put it on something south facing and outdoors, who knows how it would have lasted, but I can guarantee my phone goes through more abuse than most and it did fine. No bubbles, no shrinkage, no edge curl, no ink migration, no delamination, nada.
A lot of times, what I will do is lay the heaviest inked areas of a print over onto itself, apply pressure with my hand, and pull it away. If I hear the ink even slightly sticking to itself, I'll let it outgas longer. I also run the post heat on our eco-solvent Mimaki pretty high, in my opinion, in the 110-114 degree range. But it allows me to print in 8 or 12 passes, when necessary, and not have black ink rub off onto the back of the carrier sheet as it rolls up onto the take-up reel. We also run a lot of Oracal's profiles and it seems like their factory profiles lay down a lot of ink, at least with dark colors, like black, so I feel the higher heat helps me run my printer more productively.
A while back, I printed a 'skin' for my cell phone case on a scrap piece of Orajet 3951RA. The skull and crossbones design was mostly black ink. I pulled it off the printer, blew the heat gun over it for maybe 60 seconds, laminated it, contour cut it, and stuck it on my phone case. I left it on there for over a year until the laminate was so scratched up I just didn't want it on there anymore. I had only done it mostly as a test to see if going from print to laminate in 2 minutes or less would cause any noticeable issues and I saw none. I even removed it with no heat and maybe 10-20% of the covered area left adhesive residue behind. If I had put it on something south facing and outdoors, who knows how it would have lasted, but I can guarantee my phone goes through more abuse than most and it did fine. No bubbles, no shrinkage, no edge curl, no ink migration, no delamination, nada.
equippaint
Active Member
We print a lot on our Mimaki in 10-12 pass and we have never had it stick on the takeup either. Really if it runs across the post heater the ink wont stick to itself unless it sits there for a while. Even then "offgassed" prints will stick to themselves if you put them face to face for a long time.
SignMeUpGraphics
Super Active Member
So where are the scientific reports you claimed back up your anecdotes?
We're still waiting...
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
The most of you folk are conflating two entirely different phenomena. Actually you're conflating a myth and a real phenomena.
What is referred to as out gassing, off gassing, gassing out, sucking the pipe, or whatever term is in vogue in your village is the myth. Solvent dries via evaporation and when it's dry it's dry. This can take a few minutes but if the print passes the fingertip glide test then functionally it's as dry as its going to get. No mysterious gases come boiling off of it. None, nada, zip, zero. It's fun to blame all sorts of annoyances and failure on it but it's not true. Fake news so to speak. Perhaps solvent based coatings are being confused with oil based coatings. Lacquer vice enamel. The former dries, if not instantly, then damn close to it. The latter never really dries until it starts to oxidize, then it's life is over.
The real phenomenon is the effect solvent inks have on the composition of vinyl itself. Depending on coverage, vinyl coated with solvent inks becomes laterally unstable, rubbery for want of another description. It takes some time for the vinyl to calm down and recover its composure, speaking metaphorically. This is why vinyl should sit a while, not because of mystical gasses being emitted.
What is referred to as out gassing, off gassing, gassing out, sucking the pipe, or whatever term is in vogue in your village is the myth. Solvent dries via evaporation and when it's dry it's dry. This can take a few minutes but if the print passes the fingertip glide test then functionally it's as dry as its going to get. No mysterious gases come boiling off of it. None, nada, zip, zero. It's fun to blame all sorts of annoyances and failure on it but it's not true. Fake news so to speak. Perhaps solvent based coatings are being confused with oil based coatings. Lacquer vice enamel. The former dries, if not instantly, then damn close to it. The latter never really dries until it starts to oxidize, then it's life is over.
The real phenomenon is the effect solvent inks have on the composition of vinyl itself. Depending on coverage, vinyl coated with solvent inks becomes laterally unstable, rubbery for want of another description. It takes some time for the vinyl to calm down and recover its composure, speaking metaphorically. This is why vinyl should sit a while, not because of mystical gasses being emitted.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
As an installer, we need as many excuses (and believe me, I have THOUSANDS to choose from other then "myself") as to why something isn't as peferct as we can get. Don't take away our made up "outgassing" issue...cause then I'd only have 999 left.
I don't know what the debate is.
Printer manufacturers themselves tell you to offgas. Each ink has its own recommendations.
A print can be dry to the touch, but all that means is the surface is dry. There can still be solvent underneath that hasn't evaporated yet. It's not just solvent, it's a lot of stuff.
We had a vehicle come to us freshly from the repair shop.. it was painted about 24 hours prior. We put on some vinyl.. and there was a million tiny bubbles. It looked like there was dust everywhere underneath it. We removed it and went to put on some new one, when we noticed there was zero dust. A bit of research... and you're supposed to wait 3-4 days after for it to fully cure, because even vehicle paint needs time to offgas. I can guarantee you it was dry to the touch...yet it still evaporated/air leaked out of it, which was then trapped under the vinyl. Laminated a print that hasn't fully offgassed will do the same.. it'll cause the air to either go through the vinyl into the glue, making it weaker, or through the print and cause bubbles in the laminate.
It's not that offgassing/curing is a myth.. it's about how long it takes. Rolands new inks say prints can be handled as they roll off the printer. Never tried, so I don't know. But comparing rolands new ecosolvent to a printer thats 10 years old, and using an ink formulation that's using 10x as much solvent, is night and day. Different dry times for different machines.. you need to find whats best for yours.
For those who think you don't need to off gas at all... as soon as your print is dry, laminate it. throw it in an airtight container and let it sit for 2-3 days. Then open it and look at the vinyl... That's an "extreme" case that'll never happen in the real world, but it's just to show you that it's still off gassing.
99% of our jobs don't come back... but those that do, 100% of the time we always trace down to it being a rush job, and laminated within an hour of printing. That being said, 99% of our rush jobs don't come back either. We're 100% sure (In our minds) not offgassing causes problems... But it's a miniscule amount that it hasn't stopped us from rushing out a job when we need to. But you can bet when we have a 3,000 SQFT job that's going to cost us thousands in material and labor, we'll spend an extra 2 days offgassing just to be sure theres no issues.
Printer manufacturers themselves tell you to offgas. Each ink has its own recommendations.
A print can be dry to the touch, but all that means is the surface is dry. There can still be solvent underneath that hasn't evaporated yet. It's not just solvent, it's a lot of stuff.
We had a vehicle come to us freshly from the repair shop.. it was painted about 24 hours prior. We put on some vinyl.. and there was a million tiny bubbles. It looked like there was dust everywhere underneath it. We removed it and went to put on some new one, when we noticed there was zero dust. A bit of research... and you're supposed to wait 3-4 days after for it to fully cure, because even vehicle paint needs time to offgas. I can guarantee you it was dry to the touch...yet it still evaporated/air leaked out of it, which was then trapped under the vinyl. Laminated a print that hasn't fully offgassed will do the same.. it'll cause the air to either go through the vinyl into the glue, making it weaker, or through the print and cause bubbles in the laminate.
It's not that offgassing/curing is a myth.. it's about how long it takes. Rolands new inks say prints can be handled as they roll off the printer. Never tried, so I don't know. But comparing rolands new ecosolvent to a printer thats 10 years old, and using an ink formulation that's using 10x as much solvent, is night and day. Different dry times for different machines.. you need to find whats best for yours.
For those who think you don't need to off gas at all... as soon as your print is dry, laminate it. throw it in an airtight container and let it sit for 2-3 days. Then open it and look at the vinyl... That's an "extreme" case that'll never happen in the real world, but it's just to show you that it's still off gassing.
99% of our jobs don't come back... but those that do, 100% of the time we always trace down to it being a rush job, and laminated within an hour of printing. That being said, 99% of our rush jobs don't come back either. We're 100% sure (In our minds) not offgassing causes problems... But it's a miniscule amount that it hasn't stopped us from rushing out a job when we need to. But you can bet when we have a 3,000 SQFT job that's going to cost us thousands in material and labor, we'll spend an extra 2 days offgassing just to be sure theres no issues.
equippaint
Active Member
I can tell you from experience that fresh paint wont do anything. I bet Ive put decals on 1000 machines with 1 day old paint. Ive been rushed come auction time and put it on few hour old stuff still sitting in the paint booth more than once too. All hot solvent reduced 2 part polyurethanes. I have seen solvent pop in paint itself many times but it shows up by the next morning if not before and its from loading it on too quickly. Runs in the summertime get it too.
Last edited: