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How do we compete with this?

TyrantDesigner

Art! Hot and fresh.
nowadays I don't know how a new shop can survive long enough to get there.

Same way every new company starts up, lots of grunt work and sweat equity with feet on the ground not sitting there like a lump. Saw 2 new stores open up, didn't do crap to help promote and sell themselves and were gone 3 months later ... can't rely on people to not be lazy ... have to force them to recognize you starting out. Crap, there is a restaurant in town that is in the perfect location for a restaurant (right off an on ramp going straight into a bunch of other restaurants and you HAVE to pass them to get to that major road ... in the last year they have cancelled their grand opening 3 times and hired a new manager 5 times and are struggling to stay open ... only know about them because I'm adventurous ... tell anyone else I know the name of the place ... nothing ... and some pass the place every single day (let alone you can see their sign a mile down the road).
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Same way every new company starts up, lots of grunt work and sweat equity with feet on the ground not sitting there like a lump. Saw 2 new stores open up, didn't do crap to help promote and sell themselves and were gone 3 months later ... can't rely on people to not be lazy ... have to force them to recognize you starting out. Crap, there is a restaurant in town that is in the perfect location for a restaurant (right off an on ramp going straight into a bunch of other restaurants and you HAVE to pass them to get to that major road ... in the last year they have cancelled their grand opening 3 times and hired a new manager 5 times and are struggling to stay open ... only know about them because I'm adventurous ... tell anyone else I know the name of the place ... nothing ... and some pass the place every single day (let alone you can see their sign a mile down the road).


Ah..... but what's the quality of their food ??

I can have a great location, like any other shop and if I sit on my thumbs and not do quality work, they won't be banging at my doors, either.


Location...... Location...... Location...... is what it's all about, but without service or quality... you're doomed.
 

Colin

New Member
Interesting timing. I was just at a new customer's office installing some simple lettering to some windows, and as I walked in I was quite taken by the huge canvas print on the wall. Turns out it was 55" x 79". When I tactfully inquired as to what it cost, I was told that it was purchased from IKEA for $179.00!!!!!!!

http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/30173216/

It also had a really slick aluminum frame system which was not only super light, but easy to put together. Yes, it was a cheap level of canvas, and the print quality wasn't that great, but from any viewing distance other than close-up, it was a really dramatic piece to have in any space for very little money.

Likely from China.

The end is near folks.......the end is near.
 

Billct2

Active Member
lots of grunt work and sweat equity
and enough money in the bank (after your initial investment)to hold you over for how long till you start to actually make a paycheck, much less a profit..3 months, 6 months, a year, two..5?
Sure there are people doing it, but for every one of them there are a lot more places going out of business, and that's in the good markets.
There is only so much room in any market and this market is saturated and getting worse every day.
 

Colin

New Member
Yeah, if you think small

I suggest that most all of us in the sign business think relatively small. The question to ponder is: "How can it be that everyone thinks big?" Wouldn't that "big thinking" just become the norm, forcing yet another leap in thinking size, along with even lower prices?
 

Locals Find!

New Member
Interesting timing. I was just at a new customer's office installing some simple lettering to some windows, and as I walked in I was quite taken by the huge canvas print on the wall. Turns out it was 55" x 79". When I tactfully inquired as to what it cost, I was told that it was purchased from IKEA for $179.00!!!!!!!

http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/30173216/

It also had a really slick aluminum frame system which was not only super light, but easy to put together. Yes, it was a cheap level of canvas, and the print quality wasn't that great, but from any viewing distance other than close-up, it was a really dramatic piece to have in any space for very little money.

Likely from China.

The end is near folks.......the end is near.

The end is near if your comparing mass production versus 1 off custom pieces. I wouldn't compare a mass produced product for Ikea to anything your producing Colin. Its Apples and Oranges.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
I suggest that most all of us in the sign business think relatively small. The question to ponder is: "How can it be that everyone thinks big?" Wouldn't that "big thinking" just become the norm, forcing yet another leap in thinking size, along with even lower prices?

I guess you can look at it that way. We're more expensive then anyone within 40 miles of us. And we're 5 miles outside Denver. Not only are we the most expensive, I'm pretty sure we're much busier then them also. Sell your product at a quality standpoint, and you'll do great. Also... you have to stand by it.

You have to move with the times. Right now we're heavy in wraps.. aren't doing as many signs as we have done in the past. I can't do them as cheap as people want them. So what am i inclined to do now.. spend 120k on a flatbed to compete with those other shops on that side of our business. i pay that machine off in 6 months, and starting making pure profit after that. I guess you have to spend money to make money.
 

Colin

New Member
The end is near if your comparing mass production versus 1 off custom pieces. I wouldn't compare a mass produced product for Ikea to anything your producing Colin. Its Apples and Oranges.

Unfortunately the people buying this stuff do compare, and when it's half the price (or more), we all know where they go.
 

GP

New Member
We are redoing 30 boulevard banners for a job we lost to Staples.

New client for life.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I suggest that most all of us in the sign business think relatively small. The question to ponder is: "How can it be that everyone thinks big?" Wouldn't that "big thinking" just become the norm, forcing yet another leap in thinking size, along with even lower prices?


No, I think you're wrong in how you worded it.

Not most all of US in the sign business, just people without a game plan and settle for taking a chance here or there in the sign business think small.

Most ANY business person will think big, look at the overall big picture and bring home the big bucks.

Thinking big doesn't equate to big prices or big ideas. Do you think Ikea, McDonald's and any other successful business gets it's rocks off complaining about everytime a mouse runs across the floor or a spider climbs a rack that they shriek and run around bitching ?? Heck no, they meet it dead on, take care of it... all while not missing a beat in the process. They all have set standards which no one else can maintain, or they wouldn't remain where they're at in the business world.

If some of the people in this membership and other industries would simply worry about themselves and not what's in the neighbor's backyard, they'd be much better off. While you were installing your window lettering, did you happen to mention that you could indeed provide him with the same product, but of a much richer quality and yours could be custom fabricated ??

Learn to use key words and set your business above the rest, merely with words and key phrases. Learn to interact and be observant of your surroundings and act on them. Get your customer to be in awe of you so he calls you for everything and if you can't do it... you can point him in the right direction, but you'd be glad to take of his/her needs if they'd like.

Play the game and don't lower your standards by letting someone blindside you. I was recently blindsided by a customer a few weeks ago when they wanted me to do something for him in which I told him it won't work. I said, tell ya what, you call this person and see if you can really do it. He wanted me to use an old Pittsburgh Pirates team logo and he had every reason why he could do it and I told him flat out NO, you may not do it. Call the team headquarters and see if they'll give you permission. I thought I lost a customer, but a week went by and I got a phone call from him and he said, I must thank you for not letting me make a dreadful mistake. I had no idea things were how you told me. The Pittsburgh man told me to thank you for standing your ground and instead of going with the other guy who was going to do it for me.... I'm bringing all the teams to you and we're going to start getting all of our stuff from you. I apologized for being stern with him and he even went on to say, he was glad I did, that he learned a very valuable lesson. He said he's been in this business for almost 20 years and never knew this. He thanked me again and said I gained his respect for sticking to the truth rather than just taking a buck like all the others have in the past.

So, rather than caving in to Staples, Ikea or whoever and thinking they are the enemy, think of it.... they can't do the things you do and that's why you're at the top of your game. You da man and know how to do al the things they can't do. So now...... charge the big bucks and let it be known you are the tops in your area and beyond.
 

oldgoatroper

Roper of Goats. Old ones.
Unfortunately the people buying this stuff do compare, and when it's half the price (or more), we all know where they go.

Well, Colin, we know where they will go at first.

I have in my office a couple of those cheap retractable stands that are broken. They were brought in by customers who asked if I could take extract their graphic and make it fit one of our X-banner stands.

I was going to throw them away, but I quickly realized how useful these are as a selling tool. I just casually point them out to customers as I'm pricing a stand/graphic for them -- if they are out shopping prices and considering other cheaper stands, this tends to arrest that.
 

royster13

New Member
I think the reason some new shops fail is they think they are in the sign business....When they really need to be in the "problem solving" or "convenience" business......They need to go out and find the problems and solve them without their clients having to take the initiative to find them or who ever else is in the right place at the right time.....If business does not come to you, it is because someone else went knocking on doors and found it before the client starting looking on their own....
 

Colin

New Member
C'mon Gino, you're not validating my belly-aching! :Big Laugh

The thing I guess that frosts me is that there's more & more encroachment into the sign business by essentially big-box stores who are happy to make $10.00 on a banner. And they do take away a lot of business, because few people really care that much about the quality of their signs (especially the design aspect) and they do indeed get lured to the Staples type product. As if the sign business wasn't competitive enough amongst sign shops!

I just now flipped open the new phonebook and businesses that have historically been "print" shops for business cards, stationery etc are now displaying full colour sandwich boards in their ads.

So at what point does it start to "matter?"
 

The Vector Doctor

Chief Bezier Manipulator
Interesting timing. I was just at a new customer's office installing some simple lettering to some windows, and as I walked in I was quite taken by the huge canvas print on the wall. Turns out it was 55" x 79". When I tactfully inquired as to what it cost, I was told that it was purchased from IKEA for $179.00!!!!!!!

http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/30173216/

It also had a really slick aluminum frame system which was not only super light, but easy to put together. Yes, it was a cheap level of canvas, and the print quality wasn't that great, but from any viewing distance other than close-up, it was a really dramatic piece to have in any space for very little money.

Likely from China.

The end is near folks.......the end is near.

Mass produced, no comparison
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
C'mon Gino, you're not validating my belly-aching! :Big Laugh

The thing I guess that frosts me is that there's more & more encroachment into the sign business by essentially big-box stores who are happy to make $10.00 on a banner. And they
do take away a lot of business, because few people really care that much about the quality of their signs (especially the design aspect) and they do indeed get lured to the Staples type product. As if the sign business wasn't competitive enough amongst sign shops!

I just now flipped open the new phonebook and businesses that have historically been "print" shops for business cards, stationery etc are now displaying full colour sandwich boards in their ads.


So at what point does it start to "matter?"


Read your own signature line. :thumb:



In addition, the encroachment thing is nothing. There's always a faster, better and newer person on the horizon. You don't have to match guns with every new kid that wants your spot, but acknowledge them and keep them close to you so you always know what they're thinking and doing. :rolleyes:
My old Godfather taught me about that one. :pops_blinking:
 

TyrantDesigner

Art! Hot and fresh.
Ah..... but what's the quality of their food ??

I can have a great location, like any other shop and if I sit on my thumbs and not do quality work, they won't be banging at my doors, either.


Location...... Location...... Location...... is what it's all about, but without service or quality... you're doomed.

Well, their food still sucks ... but that is different ... no one knows they exist though.

After all, you can be in the sea of people, have the best spot ... but unless you make some noise ... are people going to go as far as a where's waldo game to find you? http://www.findwaldo.com/widget.html
 

Tim Aucoin

New Member
John your actually wrong there. Staples, Office Max and Office Depot have some of the largest printing operations in the Country. Office max for example has at least 10 regional print facilities around the country.

To say they are not real print shops is about the same as saying your not a real sign shop since your in your house. Its just blame dumb.

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
This is one of the best laughs I've had in a long time!!! I've seen first hand the "printing" that comes out of Staples, Office Depot, Grand & Toy, etc... (at least up here in Canada), and to call them professional is an insult to this industry that I've spent most of my life in!! I could write a book on how many times I've "lost" a customer because they could "get it cheaper at Staples". I say good luck to them, and a week later, they're back in my shop asking me to bail them out because Staples screwed up their job!!!

I will admit though, Staples IS a good place to buy stationery, water, printers, etc... Just because they're "BIG", it doesn't make them good at everything they attempt to do! And what the heck does "blame dumb" mean anyhow?? :rolleyes:

Oh man, thanks for the laugh... I really needed it today!!!
 

visual800

Active Member
how many customers come in wanting black and white wide format...NONE! how many banner stands do you sell? I been doing this for 23 years and have NEVER even had a call for someone looking for one. Its a BS marketing ploy
 

anotherdog

New Member
It seems quite clear given the way the market is moving that competing on price alone is a recipe for failiure. Even on a local level you are driving margins down and killing an already weak market. The cheapest or the new guy with money to burn will get the job.

On a larger scale, bigger companies like Staples are moving in with large nets to take the cheaper end of the market. Don't forget the "trade" houses who are also hurting these days are creating portals to sell direct to the public.

I tend to agree that the days of the "sign shop" are numbered, you need to become a marketing resource. A problem solver that can offer a level of service that a national or online producer can't.
Unless you have the ability to produce in bulk or have a corner of some business that is only done on a local level (vehicle wrap, signage install etc.), you have to chase the quality and level of service end of the business.

I have seen the design and marketing part of my business take a larger role in getting and keeping clients, While my direct competitors are cutting back on sales support, I am spending more time validating my clients and getting it right.

If I could find a trade sign company I could really trust (I have looked), I would just become a design shop and drop my overhead even lower.

The quality of "cheap crap" in this industry is getting better. soon will only the design make the difference?

Massive trade printers in offset litho have decimated the small print shops. We now send all our print to the likes of 4over and gotprint. Will Small sign shops follow?
 

tsgstl

New Member
how many customers come in wanting black and white wide format...NONE! how many banner stands do you sell? I been doing this for 23 years and have NEVER even had a call for someone looking for one. Its a BS marketing ploy

I agree with this guy. ^^^

Did I really see someone say "The end is near"? WOW!!
If you don't make it in this business you have nobody but yourself to blame. Certainly not Staples or Office Max. There is more than enough work out there.

Office Max and Staples and whoever is never going to build relationships with their customers. They are never going to get a present from a customer when a employee has a baby. They will never get flowers or a visit from a customer when a family member dies. I consider 3/4 of my customers friends, and I have helped a LOT of them out over the last few years with this economy. I hope to compensate from this in the future but it was MY choice to do so. And it makes me feel great to do it. Go get that at Staples.
 
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