How much to charge for vinyl install on glass doors?

[neil_se]

So you'll give me a haircut for free? I'm willing to travel. And when you screw it up I'll just wait around there for a couple of weeks until it grows back then you can screw it up again! :ROFLMAO:

The clippers weren't cheap so it'd be $3.50. I just work from home so I'm not competing with 'qualified' hairdressers and barbers, they've got mirrors and don't make you sit at their kitchen table.

I can promise that each haircut you get will be better than the previous one.

 

[Colt]

May end up not doing the install. Figured it would be all white text like the last time. But they had a logo designed, with the company name and other text in white inside a solid colored circle background. Then around the colored circle is a black outline. So not a layer job. Talked to them to see if they'd be willing to not have the solid colored circle background, but just do white text with a thin white outline circle going around the text for the company name/logo on the glass. As I explained that multi-colored logo would be a print and cut job, which is something I can't do.

But looks like they want the company name/logo on the glass to match the logo on their sign.

Could probably get a shop to print and cut out the logos for me. But don't want to do that as I wouldn't know their work or materials. So if the print looks crappy or fades in a short amount of time, wouldn't want it coming back on me.

Other problem with that is they wanted it all done within a certain day in a few weeks to match the day they change over. So if the logo install got messed up, or a lot of bubbles for example. Couldn't easily get it replaced, plus the extra cost of having them print and cut another one.

Funny thing is they want the hours for all of their locations on all of the doors. And later in the year, one location will change to a different place. So the hours part will have to be redone again on all of the doors later in the year.

 

[CES020]

Could probably get a shop to print and cut out the logos for me. But don't want to do that as I wouldn't know their work or materials. So if the print looks crappy or fades in a short amount of time, wouldn't want it coming back on me.

Other problem with that is they wanted it all done within a certain day in a few weeks to match the day they change over. So if the logo install got messed up, or a lot of bubbles for example. Couldn't easily get it replaced, plus the extra cost of having them print and cut another one.

You should check out the Merchant Members on this forum. They are VERY professional and can help you select the right materials that lay flat the first time, and look amazing. They are pros, so the quality will be excellent. If you plan on sticking with the business, you really NEED people like the Merchant Members on here. If you turn down every sign that isn't cut vinyl, you're going to be out of business before too long. There aren't many customers that only need cut vinyl. Being able to offer cut vinyl and printed and cut jobs will help you grow.

 

[letterman7]

I was staying out of this until your last post, Colt. From that description, it could be a very easy layer job - three colors. You just have to know how to lay it out to do it effectively. And, I think, that was the jist of the entire thread, regardless of whom posted. You need to get some real-world experience under your belt before jumping on jobs like that. Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but if you can't quite figure out how to layer three solid colors into a logo... maybe this isn't the vocation for you to be in.

 

[Joe Diaz]

and all the while you continue to install your mistakes, on real customers,,, then come here to learn and complain about your failure after the fact,, while you pursue your newly found hobby before you studied enough to be fully competent,,

Then real sign shops struggle while your mistakes permeate the business climate with a loss of respect for what we do. Don;t you think your client knows you are incompetent and is fully willing to take advantage of you????. Don't you think your client knows what a real sign installer is worth and yet will milk you because you are doing it for free with multiple attempts?

Then try to justify your actions by saying you are new at this while at the same time whining that someone is picking on you in a forum where people who feed their families with skills you are trying to develop have to read about this incompetence? Why not practice on home made projects like most other hobbiests until you get competent??? Why not avoid giving away your work and product to real businesses until you have some reasonable and sellable skills. Then you can charge the right amount and have have the money to do it right??? There is no excuse for doing it wrong on real willing to pay clients. Experienced installers all know this and cringe when a noob takes shortcuts.

[video=youtube;-IpPPDYWexE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IpPPDYWexE[/video]

 

[Jillbeans]

:Big Laugh

Outsource it.
That is, if you know how to prepare a file.
Or learn to use our friend, Mark Registration.
I would also add an additional border of white, as I try to avoid using black on glass as it doesn't have a lot of contrast.

 

[Colt]

I was staying out of this until your last post, Colt. From that description, it could be a very easy layer job - three colors. You just have to know how to lay it out to do it effectively. And, I think, that was the jist of the entire thread, regardless of whom posted. You need to get some real-world experience under your belt before jumping on jobs like that. Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but if you can't quite figure out how to layer three solid colors into a logo... maybe this isn't the vocation for you to be in.

It could be layered, but would have to order several feet of 2 colors plus shipping. And would be screwed if got bubbles or wrinkles and having to reorder. With the risk of bubbles, etc. Would be better to do a single layer print job. Plus good print vinyl has air channels.

I’ve mostly just done letters, and I get some bubbles. Worse with paper tape, went down better with the plastic transfer tape. So I’d probably get bubbles doing a large circle that would look bad, especially trying to layer it 3 times. Though I’ve just done it dry. I know on the layer job you do a wet application. But you have to let it dry for each layer which ads a lot of time trying to do 4 doors in a single day. Other thing is doing the 3 layer job will be tricky getting it all lined up as just being off by a little will stand out since there also is a white outline running inside the colored circle. So it’s like trying to perfectly center 3 circles. Better to just print it.
The other thing too I mentioned is they want it all done on a single day to match the day they change over. Having to redo the color may mean having to order more and get it shipped in and leaving doors half finished for several days past the changeover. Doing it in all white isn’t a big deal cause if a letter gets messed up, I can recut that letter and replace that letter same day. As I already have a large roll of white.

 

[Gino]

May end up not doing the install. Figured it would be all white text like the last time. But they had a logo designed, with the company name and other text in white inside a solid colored circle background. Then around the colored circle is a black outline. So not a layer job. Talked to them to see if they'd be willing to not have the solid colored circle background, but just do white text with a thin white outline circle going around the text for the company name/logo on the glass. As I explained that multi-colored logo would be a print and cut job, which is something I can't do.

But looks like they want the company name/logo on the glass to match the logo on their sign.

Could probably get a shop to print and cut out the logos for me. But don't want to do that as I wouldn't know their work or materials. So if the print looks crappy or fades in a short amount of time, wouldn't want it coming back on me.

Other problem with that is they wanted it all done within a certain day in a few weeks to match the day they change over. So if the logo install got messed up, or a lot of bubbles for example. Couldn't easily get it replaced, plus the extra cost of having them print and cut another one.

Funny thing is they want the hours for all of their locations on all of the doors. And later in the year, one location will change to a different place. So the hours part will have to be redone again on all of the doors later in the year.

Okay Colt, let's talk about this a little more. You claimed on and off about this being your hobby and you're not harming anyone. In fact, you barely charge enough to break even, so you are only harming yourself, huh ??

• So, who made the sign you are supposed to be matching the 3 colored logo ?? Why isn't he being considered for this job ??

You then go onto to say, you're thinking about farming it out to someone who knows what they're doing, but you can't handle the unknowns. Sure.
You don't think you can meet a deadline.
What if something goes wrong and you hafta go back ??

All these excuses and there are people still here saying you probably know what you're doing, but the customer is being unreasonable, so give ya a break.

It's about time, you fess up and say you don't have a clue as to what you're doing and you shouldn't be taking the work from a competent local sign shop, who by the way, is charging their fair prices against the likes of you charging barely above...... free.


I'm not being hard on you, but most of us had you pegged from the start, and yet you allowed this whole thing to get out of hand and turn into a slug and b!tchfest over something the old crabby pros were again correct about. Had you come here looking for sincere guidance and laid your cards out on the table, everyone of us would've been jumping in to help you find a way to save this job and help you become a business. However, with spineless excuses and dire need of everything in this industry, but trying to hide it all, just doesn't cut it. Colt, this is the real world and it's all about business. We all make money when things go right. We're here to help those who help themselves or at least wanna join our community.

Like said so many times, we all start somewhere, but a responsible person will not experiment on customers windows, trucks or signs and give them crapolla. Simply not charging is not incentive to bring in business. That trick only gets you used by someone. The customer you're describing has to know you're lost at what you're doing and is using you for a quick fix. He knows he can bat you around like a little gnat and you'll keep coming back. You should bow out while you can and tell him this is far above what you can supply. Suggest a reputable sign company in your area and bid him goodbye...... and thank you, for letting you practice on his doors, thus far.

 

[Colt]

:Big Laugh

Outsource it.
That is, if you know how to prepare a file.
Or learn to use our friend, Mark Registration.
I would also add an additional border of white, as I try to avoid using black on glass as it doesn't have a lot of contrast.

I could probably prepare the file. Would probably just need to know what kind of registration marks their printer reads. Make a bleed around the outside cut and probably add a couple of small squares to have cut out on top and bottom center which would make aligning and centering a circle easy. Then after applying just scrape off the little squares off the glass.
They gave me the vector artwork of their new logo from the artist who made it. Had to fix their vector artwork though. Found a bunch of layers of text and other items on top of each other. Say if you moved a letter, there was another copy of the letter right under it. So had to delete all the extra layers of the same thing. And their circles and lines were just lines with a width value. Which means the outline would get thicker or thinner when you enlarge or shrink it. So had to “Convert outline to object” to remove all of the lines that had a width value attached to it.

 

[Techman]

Yes, everyone has to start somewhere,

This line is so old. It belongs on the top ten list of stupid sayings.

This line of reasoning sucks. It diminishes the value of starting at the right place. It is nothing but enabling unqualified installers to feel good and continue their fails. The simple fact is... Noobs have received a spanking every time they come posting about a fail. Rightfully so.. Sorry if it makes the "pro's: look like a bunch of jealous babies but its a fact of life. A fail is always met with spanking whether here or at a shop.

Actually, the noobs get the same spanking here they would get if they were working at any shop in the country if not worse. Go ahead and accept it. A noob laying down pickle skin would get razzed for hours every time he failed all the while getting some training at the shop. How many shops would allow a noob to install before ready? That's right. None would...

One does not simply get a cutter and start installing work and calling one'self a sign maker any more than donning a racing helmet makes a race car driver.
Starting "somewhere" means start learning the basics before soliciting and accepting paying jobs. . It does not mean going out experimenting on a paying client ending with a FAIL. It especially does not mean pampering a failed installer. So when an untrained untested fail appears here results is immediate with instant feed back. The time tested and honored tradition of bashing the noob.

Many times I imagined writing a paper titled "how to be a noob." It would write practice on your own windows at home. Use up at least $300 worth of materials by practicing on the car windows and doors. Find some friends who will let you use their windows and cars to practice upon. Then the noob can practice his removal techniques as well. Step two would be practice with layering and use of home made weasel p!ss verses a professional juice. Step three would be coming here discussing his fails while describing the practice on his own glass and metal. I feel pretty confident the or she would receive some good advice helping to fix the mistakes. Actually it has occurred here many times.

 

[Techman]

Which means the outline would get thicker or thinner when you enlarge or shrink it

If you click the "keep proportions " it will not scale the images our of whack..

 

[Z SIGNS]

We don't do many of these jobs any more.
This type of work is now in the hands of the hobbyist because a real signshop would have to charge at least $500 to see any profit.
Around here a job like this takes at least a half day if everything goes smooth and when does everything go smooth
Add up the time

Doinkin around with e-mails, sketches, quoting and more e-mails sketching and quoting.
Plotting,weeding taping(depending on the copy this could eat a lot of time)
Gathering all the right tools
Printing directions to the jobsite
Taking breaks
Gassing the truck up
Setting up at the jobsite
Removing the old vynul(4 windows better bring your vacuum cleaner)
Lay down the new stuff properly.
Clean up the jobsite
Get paid and take a tour of the building
Get back to the shop and take another break
Do some more paper work

A decent sign mechanic/installer costs you at least $250 a day.


We would be around $500 for a job like this.

 

[Auburnpeanut]

How many shops would allow a noob to install before ready? That's right. None would...

One does not simply get a cutter and start installing work and calling one'self a sign maker any more than donning a racing helmet makes a race car driver.
Starting "somewhere" means start learning the basics before soliciting and accepting paying jobs. . It does not mean going out experimenting on a paying client ending with a FAIL. It especially does not mean pampering a failed installer. So when an untrained untested fail appears here results is immediate with instant feed back. The time tested and honored tradition of bashing the noob.

Many times I imagined writing a paper titled "how to be a noob." It would write practice on your own windows at home. Use up at least $300 worth of materials by practicing on the car windows and doors. Find some friends who will let you use their windows and cars to practice upon. Then the noob can practice his removal techniques as well. Step two would be practice with layering and use of home made weasel p!ss verses a professional juice. Step three would be coming here discussing his fails while describing the practice on his own glass and metal. I feel pretty confident the or she would receive some good advice helping to fix the mistakes. Actually it has occurred here many times.

Agree.

 

[Colt]

Okay Colt, let's talk about this a little more. You claimed on and off about this being your hobby and you're not harming anyone. In fact, you barely charge enough to break even, so you are only harming yourself, huh ??

• So, who made the sign you are supposed to be matching the 3 colored logo ?? Why isn't he being considered for this job ??

You then go onto to say, you're thinking about farming it out to someone who knows what they're doing, but you can't handle the unknowns. Sure.
You don't think you can meet a deadline.
What if something goes wrong and you hafta go back ??

All these excuses and there are people still here saying you probably know what you're doing, but the customer is being unreasonable, so give ya a break.

It's about time, you fess up and say you don't have a clue as to what you're doing and you shouldn't be taking the work from a competent local sign shop, who by the way, is charging their fair prices against the likes of you charging barely above...... free.


I'm not being hard on you, but most of us had you pegged from the start, and yet you allowed this whole thing to get out of hand and turn into a slug and b!tchfest over something the old crabby pros were again correct about. Had you come here looking for sincere guidance and laid your cards out on the table, everyone of us would've been jumping in to help you find a way to save this job and help you become a business. However, with spineless excuses and dire need of everything in this industry, but trying to hide it all, just doesn't cut it. Colt, this is the real world and it's all about business. We all make money when things go right. We're here to help those who help themselves or at least wanna join our community.

Like said so many times, we all start somewhere, but a responsible person will not experiment on customers windows, trucks or signs and give them crapolla. Simply not charging is not incentive to bring in business. That trick only gets you used by someone. The customer you're describing has to know you're lost at what you're doing and is using you for a quick fix. He knows he can bat you around like a little gnat and you'll keep coming back. You should bow out while you can and tell him this is far above what you can supply. Suggest a reputable sign company in your area and bid him goodbye...... and thank you, for letting you practice on his doors, thus far.

I never mentioned anything about harming or not harming anyone. Your making up some stuff with things I didn’t say. And I don’t understand why you are claiming I let “this whole thing get out of hand.” I just asked for ballpark figures one would charge a given job.

“However, with spineless excuses and dire need of everything in this industry, but trying to hide it all, just doesn’t cut it.” ??? I have no idea what you are talking about or are accusing me of. Please quote what I’ve said to back up your allegations. My cards were laid out and I explained exactly what was going on when asking for ballpark figures on a particular job. My prediction is that you will be able to quote nothing I’ve said to support your many allegations.

I’m not really experimenting, and I’m not giving “crapolla”. The customer thought my previous job was better than the “pro” they previously used. And the reason why I wasn’t interested in installing another company’s print and cut decal was because I precisely didn’t want to “experiment.”

I know the previous “pro’s” job was peeling off the windows with some places having missing chunks out of the vinyl, also with some cracking. It was a 2 year old job. So I say they must have screwed something up for it to be literally falling off the window in that amount of time. My stuff is over 6 months old and still looks like it was installed yesterday.

Another company is merging with the company I did the previous 2 vinyl installs on. The “new” company that is merging had gotten their logo designed a while back and had a large sign made at their location that sits at the road with the logo sometime before the merger. The “merged” company is using the name and hours of the “new” company. The “merged” company called me to do the job again on their doors because they liked my work. I recall them saying at the time that they liked my job better than who they had do it previously.

I didn’t really say “farming it out to someone who knows what they’re doing”. I had figured the job would be an all white job like before. But after starting this thread, I found out they wanted to use a mutli-colored logo of the “new” company. In which would best need to be printed and cut. I don’t have a vinyl print and cut machine, so would have to farm that part out if I did the job. Makes sense don’t it?

I can say there are a lot of “pros” that do crappy jobs. Seen vinyl on doors where not everything was weeded. Seen vinyl on doors where you can tell the offset was way off. Seen multi-colored “no smoke” sign vinyl that was half an inch out of alignment for example.

The “deadline” you are talking about is they have a date that they want the install to occur on to match the day they change over. Less than 2 weeks from now. They don’t want the install to be before or after that date.

A while back at a barber shop in town getting a haircut. First time being there as they were newly opened. Asked who did their vinyl on their doors, etc. The barber shop owner told me the local sign shop that installed the vinyl used the wrong font than what she told them to use, but didn’t say anything cause the sign shop guy was old. The barber shop owner had a different local sign shop install of sign jetting out the side of the building. The owner said that shop screwed it up having to have them fix it or something and the owner said he would never use that sign shop again. I think it was still screwed up but that the owner gave up trying to get the sign shop to fix it or something. Sounded like it was a big mess as the barber shop owner was real pissed about whatever went down with that sign shop. I think they may have torn something up.

So, in that example, there are two local different “pro” sign shops that screwed up jobs with the same “customer” during the first job they did with that “customer”.

 

[Billct2]

I know the previous “pro’s” job was peeling off the windows

The only thing "pro" about someone who does work like that is that they got paid.
Sounds like the competition in your area are all hacks, so at least you're playing on a level field.

 

[Gino]

I never mentioned anything about harming or not harming anyone. Your making up some stuff with things I didn’t say. And I don’t understand why you are claiming I let “this whole thing get out of hand.” I just asked for ballpark figures one would charge a given job.

“However, with spineless excuses and dire need of everything in this industry, but trying to hide it all, just doesn’t cut it.” ??? I have no idea what you are talking about or are accusing me of. Please quote what I’ve said to back up your allegations. My cards were laid out and I explained exactly what was going on when asking for ballpark figures on a particular job. My prediction is that you will be able to quote nothing I’ve said to support your many allegations.

I’m not really experimenting, and I’m not giving “crapolla”. The customer thought my previous job was better than the “pro” they previously used. And the reason why I wasn’t interested in installing another company’s print and cut decal was because I precisely didn’t want to “experiment.”

I know the previous “pro’s” job was peeling off the windows with some places having missing chunks out of the vinyl, also with some cracking. It was a 2 year old job. So I say they must have screwed something up for it to be literally falling off the window in that amount of time. My stuff is over 6 months old and still looks like it was installed yesterday.

Another company is merging with the company I did the previous 2 vinyl installs on. The “new” company that is merging had gotten their logo designed a while back and had a large sign made at their location that sits at the road with the logo sometime before the merger. The “merged” company is using the name and hours of the “new” company. The “merged” company called me to do the job again on their doors because they liked my work. I recall them saying at the time that they liked my job better than who they had do it previously.

I didn’t really say “farming it out to someone who knows what they’re doing”. I had figured the job would be an all white job like before. But after starting this thread, I found out they wanted to use a mutli-colored logo of the “new” company. In which would best need to be printed and cut. I don’t have a vinyl print and cut machine, so would have to farm that part out if I did the job. Makes sense don’t it?

I can say there are a lot of “pros” that do crappy jobs. Seen vinyl on doors where not everything was weeded. Seen vinyl on doors where you can tell the offset was way off. Seen multi-colored “no smoke” sign vinyl that was half an inch out of alignment for example.

The “deadline” you are talking about is they have a date that they want the install to occur on to match the day they change over. Less than 2 weeks from now. They don’t want the install to be before or after that date.

A while back at a barber shop in town getting a haircut. First time being there as they were newly opened. Asked who did their vinyl on their doors, etc. The barber shop owner told me the local sign shop that installed the vinyl used the wrong font than what she told them to use, but didn’t say anything cause the sign shop guy was old. The barber shop owner had a different local sign shop install of sign jetting out the side of the building. The owner said that shop screwed it up having to have them fix it or something and the owner said he would never use that sign shop again. I think it was still screwed up but that the owner gave up trying to get the sign shop to fix it or something. Sounded like it was a big mess as the barber shop owner was real pissed about whatever went down with that sign shop. I think they may have torn something up.

So, in that example, there are two local different “pro” sign shops that screwed up jobs with the same “customer” during the first job they did with that “customer”.

I will admit, with Cherry's and lod's comments in there, some of them blurred into being part of yours. For that, I apologize.

However, the part about harming others stems from your doing it for free to get experience, not once, but twice. The rest of it is written in the first 3 or 4 posts you wrote, giving us some background on your skill level and reasoning. Had you mentioned about two other hacks messing up before you, some things would've made more sense, but now we know. As we continue to ask questions, things slowly unfold. That's all.

We've had window or glass jobs go bad and believe it or not... barber shops and beauty salons are some of the biggest culprits. Whether it's the chemicals in the air, the amount of cleaning they might do or any other cause, it does happen. Now, not using correct fonts sounds a little like you saying, why can't they use all white, why can't they let me do it the way I want and have the materials for, instead of going out and buying more ??

I did try to help you, although it was against my better judgement. You are... afterall, a member here and deserve the help you are seeking. My only request would be, if you have so many points of interest involved in a story, to perhaps tell us the full story so we can make better assessments in order to help you properly.



Lastly..... most, if not all your questions sounded so remarkably super simple, they almost sounded fake. That too, I apologize for. Being tactful is not my strong suit, but I'll have your back in a minute, if ya just level with us.

 

[Colt]

The only thing "pro" about someone who does work like that is that they got paid.
Sounds like the competition in your area are all hacks, so at least you're playing on a level field.

And they didn't get the return job.

Have had cars in different auto shops that screw things up or mess things up, etc. So quit going to those shops and ended up just doing auto work myself. So, doing hack work ends up costing them repeat business.

 

[Colt]

I will admit, with Cherry's and lod's comments in there, some of them blurred into being part of yours. For that, I apologize.

However, the part about harming others stems from your doing it for free to get experience, not once, but twice. The rest of it is written in the first 3 or 4 posts you wrote, giving us some background on your skill level and reasoning. Had you mentioned about two other hacks messing up before you, some things would've made more sense, but now we know. As we continue to ask questions, things slowly unfold. That's all.

We've had window or glass jobs go bad and believe it or not... barber shops and beauty salons are some of the biggest culprits. Whether it's the chemicals in the air, the amount of cleaning they might do or any other cause, it does happen. Now, not using correct fonts sounds a little like you saying, why can't they use all white, why can't they let me do it the way I want and have the materials for, instead of going out and buying more ??

I did try to help you, although it was against my better judgement. You are... afterall, a member here and deserve the help you are seeking. My only request would be, if you have so many points of interest involved in a story, to perhaps tell us the full story so we can make better assessments in order to help you properly.



Lastly..... most, if not all your questions sounded so remarkably super simple, they almost sounded fake. That too, I apologize for. Being tactful is not my strong suit, but I'll have your back in a minute, if ya just level with us.

Well one of the members here writes that newbies pretty much shouldn’t be charging while they are learning. But then you are saying pretty much that I charged too little. So I don’t think it really matters.

You didn’t mention about the people I helped. The business would have spent a lot on redundant installs. I do know it needs to be redone now, and will need to be redone again later in the year. So that would be 4 installs on the same doors in a little over a year period. Though, don’t know if I’ll do the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] and 4[SUP]th[/SUP]+ install. I could have asked for big money after doing the first two installs, but decided not to. There are shops out there that hurt people by using cheapo vinyl that falls apart fast so it has to be done over and over again.

The double install job I did wasn’t at the barber shop in case I gave that impression. Just used that as an example of vinyl “pros” screwing up.

I never said anything that would give the impression that I want or expect the customer in this case to let me do it the way I want, or use what colors I want, etc.

The last two jobs I did for them, they pretty much told me nothing of what they wanted. They just gave me their hours and the name they wanted at the top. For both jobs, I asked them some things like asking them what font? They told me to do what I think will look best. I ask them how big do they want it? They tell me to choose. I ask them how high up do they want it? They tell me to choose. So pretty much I designed the whole thing on the first two installs.

Now on this 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] job they contacted me about. I stopped by, and they had a Word print out of what they were wanting, i.e. hours and other wording and typed it to around how they wanted the format to look even though nothing was lined up for example or sized correctly. This print out mock up did not have the new company’s logo on it. While I stood there talking to them, they changed things in the layout like 5 times in 10 minutes like they were trying to figure out how they wanted it. They came up with using the new company’s logo on the fly and had to print it to show me. I asked them if they wanted it with or without the colored background. I told them I could do just the white letters and circle outline, that way you can still see in through the door. I told them with the colored background, that it would be a big opaque sticker. I also told them that would be a layer job, or could have it printed and told them I don’t do printing. But they said they were pretty sure they wanted the logo to match. But who knows, I could have ordered the film if I did a layer job, and they then change their mind. So I told them I’d mock up the hours and do one with the colored logo and one with just the white part of the logo and let them decide what they want. Later looking at the graphic they sent me I noticed the black outline and figured the logo should be printed.

 

[CES020]

I don't think it's so easy to put some people in the "pro" category. I make a habit of taking photos of failing sign issues around this town. I have seen a lot over the years, all done by "professional" sign companies. I have photos of marketing signs we replaced and I had Miss Utility mark before we did anything. The "Professionals" apparently forgot to call Miss Utility on anything they did that we replaced. I have photos of sign posts sitting dead on the high voltage underground electric cables. Big fat red paint marks running right where they had installed the posts. I've got another photo of them installing it right on top of a Fiber Optic cable.

These were from "professional" sign companies that had been in business for over 20 years.

Last week I took photos of a failing vehicle wrap, wrapped by one of the top sign companies in the area.

I'm not sure it's as easy to put labels onto people like newbie or pro that actually mean anything. When I was a newbie, I often replaced poor signage with a higher quality product than I removed. Didn't make me any more professional, it just made me someone that gave a crap about the craft of producing high quality work. You don't have to have 30 years experience under a sign painter that painted signs by hand to understand quality.

A new neighbor moved in about a month ago and seems to be a grumpy dude. Won't speak a word to us even though his door is 12" from our door. Had a "professional" sign company put vinyl lettering on his new van. Never gave us the chance to quote it (which is fine, I didn't want to work for the jerk anyway). I went over and looked at it. Completely full of bubbles. Good thing a "pro" installed it, I guess.

 

[Gino]

Pricing is something that you either use a formula, which Fred has a fantastic article on that somewhere, or you run by the seat of your pants, based on what you're area can afford. In other words, I might get $128.00 to do the door and someone else will say, they can't get half that. Well, either you stand your ground and get it, or just settle whatever your area will pay. However, that might not pay the bills. You need to know all the essentials of doing business such as your overhead, your cost of utilities, cost of operation, materials, insurance, time, lost time, lost media, lost customers..... yes, you hafta charge for the jobs you don't get or go out of business.

If you get one out of every ten jobs you quote, unless you're getting tippy-top dollar, you'll never survive.
If you price so low as to get everyone, you'll never survive, cause you'll never make any profit.
You need to find a way to get 1/2 of the projects coming in your shop, via your website, foot traffic or phone calls. That generally means you're fair and 1/2 of everybody is using you. Once your start getting too busy and too many jobs to keep up with and you go to seven out of ten, you need to raise your prices, but not to the point you drop down to three out of ten. When you're in the middle or a little better....., you will be actually getting paid for mistakes, people that turned you down and many other kinds of loses. The less loss you have, the better your profit will be and the happier you'll be going to the bank...... or the casino.


As for the good you did for those people..... don't think about it. It's all business. People get burnt and will have a bad taste in their mouth and then use that bitterness towards you telling you how the last guy did this and the other guy did that and your aim will be to please this fabulous customer. These are the people to be very cautious about. Generally someone doesn't run into that many problems, unless they themselves are the root of the problems. Perhaps between his b!tchiness and wanting you to do it casue your cheap.... well, I can see a pattern forming. Can you ?? When someone continually complains and tells you how this person did this, this and that..... they're generally a problem to begin with. Stay clear of them, if you can. You might think you can tolerate them, but they'll use up so much of your positive energy, you'll go home after work exhausted.


And the last one, yes you did at least tell us, you wanted and asked him to go with just white. That sounds weak.... anyway in my book.

 

[Colt]

I didn't do any vinyl at the barber shop who complained of the wrong font used and poor outside sign done. I just used that as an example of local shops screwing up since a lot of attention here assumes all mistakes are done by newbies.

I don't see what the problem is with giving the customer some different options. Especially when they don't even know what they want and aren't telling you much and change their mind a lot. I've seen logos on glass that were modified to remove the color background so the glass was still see-thru. Yes, I think a see-thru with white text logo would look better than a large opaque graphic on the front door.

When they printed off the logo to show me, it was in black and white. So I asked if they just wanted the white, and then they told me the logo is in color and they grabbed something that had the color logo on it. And they said they "thought" the company would want it in color to match their outside sign. I explained that I could do just the white. But the multicolor job would need to be printed or layered. And explained layering it is tricky as you can't have any bubbles. And told them I hadn't done much layering and would have to order small pieces of color. But they were still "guessing" someone else would probably want it in color. So I told them I'd mock up one with the colored logo, and one with the all white logo and let them decide what they want.

I'll probably just send them the mockup with the color logo and tell them if they want the color logo to find a shop that can print it to do the install.

I've seen some simple things in town that were a two color job that was printed instead of layered with regular vinyl. So I say if they went to a shop that they'd probably print it off.

Also, they are wanting it all done on a single day. What if that day is super windy? Real easy to screw up that would be a pain if using a print and cut from someone else or doing a layer job with limited color vinyl. The 2nd time I did the job, it was super windy. And had to redo some letters and things as a gush of wind would come by and slap it on the glass. Good thing I had cut out extras. So had to try and work in between the wind gushes.