HP 360 de-lamination issues

[P Wagner]

+1 to the previous comments on incomplete curing of the ink as the likely cause of this.

 

[FishnSigns]

To go along with the thought that maybe they are not cured properly, Are the temp settings correct for the material you are using?

Ok, so our last run of IJ35 doesn't look oily, sure seems dry. We are curing at 235', where is everyone else setting their cure temp?

 

[johndstevens]

HP Latex Delam Issues

All prints that come out of the HP Latex Series of printers are intended to be dry, cured and ready to laminate or finish immediately without any need to wait. Latex does not air dry - it is cured within the printer. If the prints are oily, wet or not cured - something is wrong. Could be the profile which would include optimizer levels, could be settings, could be RIP, could be mechanical - but bottom line, sounds like something is not right. You mention talking to your supplier - which is always a good first step, but if they cannot help you, your 360 are covered by a HP Warranty. I tried to PM you, but since I am not even a Sophomore in HS yet apparently, I cannot do this. You can reach me at latex@hp.com - and I can assist you with getting support. Thank you for your support of HP Latex printing.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

It can come out of the printer dry but not be thouroughly dry. Meaning the prints will look and feel dry on the top but if you let them sit for a couple hours the will start to get an oily finish to them. And the temp doesn't matter at all unless you also let us know the pass levels. More passes, less speed, more ink, more time in drying area. Less heat is needed. Less passess actually means faster printing which would require higher dry temps.
Sounds like you laminated it before it was completely dry. Then the oils moved through to the surface which is between your print and the lam.

 

[dan1942]

All prints that come out of the HP Latex Series of printers are intended to be dry, cured and ready to laminate or finish immediately without any need to wait. Latex does not air dry - it is cured within the printer. If the prints are oily, wet or not cured - something is wrong. Could be the profile which would include optimizer levels, could be settings, could be RIP, could be mechanical - but bottom line, sounds like something is not right. You mention talking to your supplier - which is always a good first step, but if they cannot help you, your 360 are covered by a HP Warranty. I tried to PM you, but since I am not even a Sophomore in HS yet apparently, I cannot do this. You can reach me at latex@hp.com - and I can assist you with getting support. Thank you for your support of HP Latex printing.

Thanks John for jumping in on this thread!
Dan

 

[FishnSigns]

All prints that come out of the HP Latex Series of printers are intended to be dry, cured and ready to laminate or finish immediately without any need to wait. Latex does not air dry - it is cured within the printer. If the prints are oily, wet or not cured - something is wrong. Could be the profile which would include optimizer levels, could be settings, could be RIP, could be mechanical - but bottom line, sounds like something is not right. You mention talking to your supplier - which is always a good first step, but if they cannot help you, your 360 are covered by a HP Warranty. I tried to PM you, but since I am not even a Sophomore in HS yet apparently, I cannot do this. You can reach me at latex@hp.com - and I can assist you with getting support. Thank you for your support of HP Latex printing.

Thanks John. Much appreciated. I will send you an email.

Looking at our 3M IJ35 profile, we are running 10 pass, 235 for our drying, and normal OP levels. We are running Caldera V10, made our own profile. Our prints sure seem to be dry but I'm not an expert at this point. Still trying to learn about Latex. I could have figured out our solvent presses in a snap, our FB700 is also dialed in pretty well. Any insite on Latex would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[AF]

Also be careful how you handle the media before it is laminated so you don't introduce contamination. If you have silicone on a hand or surface in the shop and it gets on the print then the laminate won't stick well, for example.

 

[Johnmpcny]

maybe to simple

What laminator are you using and is it hot or cold lam? I tend to lean on a hp service call as your under warranty.

Yet it got Thinking that if hot lam could it be a issue with heating the latex ink up and causing this? Maybe too simple but I did not see what laminator you're using. I would ask HP what combo of materials they best recommend, use that and see what happens. Remember all products on the list approved do not work equally, they are just approved for use. Big name means little, ask what is best product and what lam to use with it. Then if you still have a issue, you track backward to the printer/ink.

BTW I mostly find outside of real mismatch or out of spec product, it is almost never the material but a ink-heat- head issue.

 

[FishnSigns]

Good point. We are using a Seal 54 base, no heat. Roughly 60% pressure. The quick response from 3M was "the ink is not cured, add 20 degrees of heat". Not sure how else to test the ink other than trying a smudge test and a good visual. The ink isn't oily, feels and looks dry. How else to we test to see if the ink is dry? My rep is reaching out to HP and Arlon today. For now, we are going to bump the heat a little but I'm worried about distortion if we go too high. We're already at 235.

What heat settings are others running for IJ180 and IJ35?

 

[Andriy]

The way I test all the prints is using a sharp screw and see if the ink comes off.
I just received this printer about a month ago and haven't ran any IJ180 but did quite a few Avery MPI 1005 and Kapco rolls and both use max degrees heat and haven't had any distortion or issues. If it does give your vinyl distortion then just increase the passes for a slower print.

 

[FishnSigns]

Still having issues with our 360. We just wrapped a big truck and had several areas delaminate. We were using Arlon 6000xrp with 3220 gloss overlaminate. We have tried a number of different adjustments on the printer - same results. I have sent two rounds of bad material to HP, they are working on a resolution but nothing as of yet. Anyone else out there having delam issues? Getting really nervous about warranty issues on completed jobs already in the field...

 

[Jack Knight1979]

After you run a job, can you do the "thumb twist test". Put a little pressure on the print with your thumb and give it a twist. I would think it would delaminate under this test if it's peeling up from the adhesive of the laminate.

 

[Asuma01]

if you cant raise the temperature then increase the amount of passes. if you are at 10 passes try 12. after 12 I think it bumps up to 16 passes. Keep in mind increasing the passes doesn't increase the amount of ink it puts down (unless you mess with your ink limits in your profile.) BUT it can still effect the color.

have you ever printed something have it come out perfect and rolled it up and let it set for a day and then the next day after unrolling the material have it be oily or wet looking? That is a sign of not enough curing. For me this happens most with dark colors. blacks, browns, dark blues and dark reds.

Have you ruled out your material being too old or defective?
I sympathize with you. Problems like this can be hard to figure out and FRUSTRATING.

Don't forget to recalibrate after you change the number of passes.

 

[FishnSigns]

Good suggestion, I will try this on the next run. Thanks,

 

[FishnSigns]

Pretty sure we are printing on fresh material. We go through several rolls per week so they are new to us, hopefully they are new from the local distributor. Haven't noticed any oily appearance, but will keep looking. frustrating is right!

 

[dypinc]

Pretty sure we are printing on fresh material. We go through several rolls per week so they are new to us, hopefully they are new from the local distributor. Haven't noticed any oily appearance, but will keep looking. frustrating is right!

Are you sure it isn't possibility a laminator issue. Not enough pressure? Running too fast?

I ask because others and myself have not seen this. I even tested this with when it was first brought up.

 

[FishnSigns]

Good thought. We are running a Seal 54 with heat assist. We lam most of our PS vinyl at 80% pressure. We've tried it with and without heat assist, same results either way. It has to be something with the inks is my best guest.

 

[dypinc]

Good thought. We are running a Seal 54 with heat assist. We lam most of our PS vinyl at 80% pressure. We've tried it with and without heat assist, same results either way. It has to be something with the inks is my best guest.

On our Seal 6100 we have a -2mm setting which is where I run when over-lamining paper or film, at 60 lbs. pressure.

 

[studebaker]

This is simply a matter of turning up the optimizer level. The optimizer "ink" is what helps the latex ink stick to the vinyl.

 

[FishnSigns]

Thanks Studebaker. Will give it a shot. Love your signature line by the way!