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HP 360 de-lamination issues

Asuma01

New Member
I once had an actual Graphtec tech tell me to unplug the serial data cable to our plotter and pour out the bad data.....:omg:.

Well I hope you had a container to catch all that extra data that poured out of the line! Would be a shame for that data to go to waste.
 

derekw13029

New Member
I ran into a somewhat similar problem using HP ViziPrint Impress SEL in an HP Latex 330.

From what others have mentioned, I know it can be frustrating because the suggestions people are giving aren't what you are seeing.

But for me, it was an issue like others are describing. The printed media looked dry, looked great. But after spooling onto the take-up reel, when I went to unroll the drops to cut them (this project was a multi-panel window graphic), they were oily. I *know* that when I rolled the print up it was dry, but overnight it somehow gassed out or the ink wasn't properly cured.

Once I noticed this happening, I had to run the print again because the now oily ink smeared when touched. So this time I watched very carefully, and the print *was* oily coming out of the machine. I took a blow dryer to it while it was rolling onto the takeup reel. It again appeared dry, but after sitting overnight, it was oily again.

Eventually, I maxed out the inter-pass delay on the printer. I couldn't adjust the temperature because raising it would cause deformations in the media. However, increasing the number of passes and most importantly, maxing out the inter-pass delay did the trick.

Sure, it took a helluva lot longer to print those 7 drops, but in the end it worked.

The only other issue I could think of is your material isn't coated for Latex inks. But that doesn't seem to be the case because this issue is happening on multiple media types.

What is the relative humidity in your building? I know here in OK we had a monsoon last month, it literally rained every day. The humidity outside was 90% just about all month, and it no doubt impacted some of our material. It didn't help that the lady next door to us flooded and took her sweet time getting her carpets dried out..... :/

I hope something can help you. I know it's frustrating, but at least you have people trying to help.
 

FishnSigns

New Member
Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it. Yes it's been frustrating but I have to say - HP has been working hard trying to figure the problem out. The humidity might have something to do with it. In Colorado humidity is always lower than ideal. We had a lot of issues throughout the winter but the problems have been a little better with all of this crazy rain lately. They haven't gone away but the combination of the increased humidity and increased inter-pass delay has seemed to help somewhat.

The latest development from HP is a possible bad batch of ink. They seem to think there might have been a problem with magenta and possibly yellow ink therefore causing some adhesion and color shift issues. Still working through this process but HP has been right along for the ride. Not the best situation but I can say HP has been great up to this point.

More to come...
 

hoggy94

New Member
A bit left of field, but have the heaters been checked? It certainly sounds like it may be an ink curing issue. I have heard of issues on earlier latex machines with faulty heaters. The machine may be indicating that set temps are ok, but are the actual temps correct?
 

TomK

New Member
Did you guys ever get to the root cause of this issue? Was it a bad batch of latex ink?
 

5starwraps

New Member
Status Report?

I came across this thread this morning because we just got an L360 installed a month ago. Great machine but this morning I had some clear delam issues. Printed solid Lt. Blue and Orange and had the same issues. Laminated with a Royal Sovereign RSC-5500H with Heat on. Print was on IJ35. We also run a Seiko M64 and don't have any issues at all with delam. Same material same laminate--Brite Line Gloss. Any updates at all to report?
 

JoeBoomer

New Member
Anyone figure this out?

I have been running into de-lamination issues with a variety of medias on my HP 360. I've noticed the issue is worse on printed areas, but also happens in the white areas of media that I run through my printer. I can actually pull the laminate away from the media. In 10+ years of being in the industry, I've never been able to separate laminate from media.


Materials:
3M IJ35
Oracal 3850
Arlon DPF 8000
Avery MPI 1005

3M 8508
3M 8510
Avery DOL 1060
Arlon 3220


The prints are fully cured. They are not "re-wetting" or outgassing. I have experienced that before on my HP L25500, so I do know how to tell. The laminate should never pull away from the media, so the laminator is not the issue. My best guess is the OP that is being put down on the media. Does it print the OP on even the white areas, or just where the print is?

Any ideas?

Thanks!
 

dypinc

New Member
The prints are fully cured. They are not "re-wetting" or outgassing. I have experienced that before on my HP L25500, so I do know how to tell. The laminate should never pull away from the media, so the laminator is not the issue. My best guess is the OP that is being put down on the media. Does it print the OP on even the white areas, or just where the print is?

Any ideas?

Thanks!

If you have experienced that before on your HP L25500 that would sort of rule out the OP. You could always test by turning the OP to 0 and see if it makes any difference with the delimitation. If I was guessing there is some sort of film adhering to the media from the evaporation process. Does the media feel any different after a print run through the L360 as opposed to media not run through the printer. Is the area where the printer sits well ventilated or not. Might be something to consider.
 

greysquirrel

New Member
I keep reading "normal levels of optimiser"???what is a normal level? The level selected from the downloaded profile? It may not be normal for your lot/environment. Heat temps on 10 pass at 235 degrees...never. Way too hot.

25-30 optimiser
200-215 degrees heat on 8-10 pass..

what are the ink densities in your profile when you created it? You may only need 90-100% saturation...sure the 110 and 120 levels of saturation look great...but you are having curing or delamination issues...

always error on...Less is more...

Create your own profile...
214 degrees temp
30% optimiser
10 pass
100% saturation

clone a generic profile...change settings, recalibrate reprofile...report back

by the way I'm just curious...what does your reseller have to say....whoever sold you the printer...and sells you ink and media should be there helping you...another reseller will always offer help...if you are offering to purchase from them...
 

AF

New Member
Crank up the heat, you have to nuke the latex ink or you will have problems with laminating.
 

dypinc

New Member
I keep reading "normal levels of optimiser"???what is a normal level? The level selected from the downloaded profile? It may not be normal for your lot/environment. Heat temps on 10 pass at 235 degrees...never. Way too hot.

25-30 optimiser
200-215 degrees heat on 8-10 pass..

what are the ink densities in your profile when you created it? You may only need 90-100% saturation...sure the 110 and 120 levels of saturation look great...but you are having curing or delamination issues...

always error on...Less is more...

Create your own profile...
214 degrees temp
30% optimiser
10 pass
100% saturation

clone a generic profile...change settings, recalibrate reprofile...report back

by the way I'm just curious...what does your reseller have to say....whoever sold you the printer...and sells you ink and media should be there helping you...another reseller will always offer help...if you are offering to purchase from them...

In testing on SAV, the Optimizer setting seemed best at 8% to 12%. Optimizer is figured into the ink density so the more you use the less saturation/gamut you can achieve. And, I never had issues with 230 degrees or curing and delimitation issues in a well ventilated climate controlled room.
 

greysquirrel

New Member
I keep reading "normal levels of optimiser"???what is a normal level? The level selected from the downloaded profile? It may not be normal for your lot/environment. Heat temps on 10 pass at 235 degrees...never. Way too hot.

25-30 optimiser
200-215 degrees heat on 8-10 pass..

what are the ink densities in your profile when you created it? You may only need 90-100% saturation...sure the 110 and 120 levels of saturation look great...but you are having curing or delamination issues...

always error on...Less is more...

Create your own profile...
214 degrees temp
30% optimiser
10 pass
100% saturation

clone a generic profile...change settings, recalibrate reprofile...report back

by the way I'm just curious...what does your reseller have to say....whoever sold you the printer...and sells you ink and media should be there helping you...another reseller will always offer help...if you are offering to purchase from them...


Correction...8-15% optimiser...sorry
 

ALoneWolf

New Member
I like reading these threads. I learn a lot from the experience you all have since I've only been doing our printing on our 360 for a year and a half.

I have occasionally experienced some delamination as well. I wonder if it matters how long is it after laminating that the install takes place? I know that you can lam a print off the 360 right away. But I have noticed that lam seems to adhere to surfaces better after some time has passed. I'm guessing it cures or bonds better over time. In other words, I can peel off lam right after lamination, but not the next day. So I try to avoid being rushed to install or the frequent "emergency" jobs that always come up.:smile:

I new at this compared to most of you. Any of you experienced this as well?
 

Tldr

New Member
I'm almost positive curing is the issue. On the printer panel, select modify on your profile. From there print a saturation plot. As an example let's say 8pCMYKcm130% is your problem profile. The saturation plot will print a range from 70% to 140%(depending on the media). Let that plot sit for a day. After it has sat, check each level. Any oily residue means it's not cured. Pick the highest saturation level that's fully cured and your problem should be solved. Now the print color won't be as saturated at lower levels but either sacrifice the color or up the passes and sacrifice time.

Btw this has nothing to do with ink limit. Ink limit on the rip and the density at the printer are 2 different things.
 

GP_Oz

New Member
I'm almost positive curing is the issue. On the printer panel, select modify on your profile. From there print a saturation plot. As an example let's say 8pCMYKcm130% is your problem profile. The saturation plot will print a range from 70% to 140%(depending on the media). Let that plot sit for a day. After it has sat, check each level. Any oily residue means it's not cured. Pick the highest saturation level that's fully cured and your problem should be solved. Now the print color won't be as saturated at lower levels but either sacrifice the color or up the passes and sacrifice time.

Btw this has nothing to do with ink limit. Ink limit on the rip and the density at the printer are 2 different things.

This is good advice - also just to add to this leave overnight bit.

I find i prefer the ink saturation towards the high end of the scale, but what I realised i was doing was canceling the print after it hit say 90%
The machine would then cure the print at the same rate of printing etc..but then it rewinds back into the curing zone - gives you a false test
I now I let it print out a bit further and cut off before i cancel with a knife and leave the 120-90% section overnight if i really want to be sure.
 

eahicks

Magna Cum Laude - School of Hard Knocks
I've had to bump my curing temp up to 245F for running IJ35C. Have had issues with what seems to be lack of curing....sometimes there's that 'oily' feeling, as well as everything has been easy to accidentally scratch.
 

graphics101

New Member
We purchased 2 HP 360's at the end of last year. We have had a handful of de-lamination issues since we made the switch. In 12 years of running solvent printers, not once did we experience de-lamination. Now it has happened with 3M IJ180/8518, 3M IJ35/PS luster lam, and now Arlon 6000xrp/cast lam the problem usually happens when we need to snap up a print to reposition. The clear laminate releases from the printed ink leaving what appears to be a "hole" in the print. When you look closer, the lamination is still together but it released from the ink. It's one thing to have to reprint a panel for an install. My main concern is the completed work that's already out there. If this is an issue, will we have de-lamination issues down the road on completed projects?

Anyone out there experience this problem? Thanks.
 
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