HP 360 de-lamination issues

[AF]

Would it be too difficult to post a picture of the problem???

I suspect the ink isn't fully cured, which can be tested by rubbing a wet white towel over the print to see if ink releases. Temperature alone won't cure the print if the profile is dumping too much ink. More passes won't solve the problem either if the profile is bad. I would not dismiss the possibility that there is a problem with the printer.

 

[FishnSigns]

Here's a photo. Lamination comes off clean, leaves the printed vinyl behind. A real bummer when it's in the middle of a large panel!

 

[FishnSigns]

Just tried the wet paper towel test (and dry for grins), nothing came off on the paper towel. Curing at 235, optimizer level at 12.

 

[Asuma01]

I'm all out of ideas.

 

[FishnSigns]

Doubtful that it's the laminate since we've had 3 different kinds fail (Arlon, 3M, 3rd party). Could be but doubtful.

 

[studebaker]

This is simply a matter of turning up the optimizer level. The optimizer "ink" is what helps the latex ink stick to the vinyl.

Actually, I found the problem! You need to cure it at a higher temperature. If you don't it leaves a "waxy" film on top of the print. Temps below 110 c should only be for aqueous receptive substrates.

 

[FishnSigns]

We are curing at 235. Max temp is 241 (which we have tried).

 

[Asuma01]

Are using HP inks? Not 3rd party?

 

[FishnSigns]

Correct. OEM inks for sure.

 

[Dan360]

Is there a reason you had to create your own profiles? I've never had any issues with the certified profile downloaded from the 360 or even the generic vinyl one that we first used when we got the machine. If you tried those profiles and they weren't working, I'm guessing it is a flaw in the machine or the RIP.

 

[dypinc]

Is there a reason you had to create your own profiles? I've never had any issues with the certified profile downloaded from the 360 or even the generic vinyl one that we first used when we got the machine. If you tried those profiles and they weren't working, I'm guessing it is a flaw in the machine or the RIP.

Are you serious? I think most of them must have been created with the on-board spectro and HP worthless profile creating on-board software. If you were to create real profiles with top quality profiling software you would know the difference.

 

[Andriy]

My guess would be it has something to do with the way you are laminating the prints if everything is cured fine.

 

[FishnSigns]

The canned profiles are a good starting point but we need to build our own profiles to create uniform output across all of our presses. We use an i1pro2 with an i0 table to build all of our profiles. We should be able to lay down as much or as little ink as we want (within reason) and still get usable output off of a latex. That's one of the big draws to latex is the ability to oversaturate prints, especially for backlit applications. Also being able to tweak profiles to hit stronger reds, etc... as long as the ink is dry, we should be able to laminate in my opinion. Granted I'm kind of new to latex but I have quite a bit of experience building profiles and printing with solvent, eco-solvent, aqueous, and UV printers. The darn wildcard is still the optimizer, I'm almost convinced our issue has something to do with this new addition.

 

[dypinc]

The canned profiles are a good starting point but we need to build our own profiles to create uniform output across all of our presses. We use an i1pro2 with an i0 table to build all of our profiles. We should be able to lay down as much or as little ink as we want (within reason) and still get usable output off of a latex. That's one of the big draws to latex is the ability to oversaturate prints, especially for backlit applications. Also being able to tweak profiles to hit stronger reds, etc... as long as the ink is dry, we should be able to laminate in my opinion. Granted I'm kind of new to latex but I have quite a bit of experience building profiles and printing with solvent, eco-solvent, aqueous, and UV printers. The darn wildcard is still the optimizer, I'm almost convinced our issue has something to do with this new addition.

Wait a minute. Where did you get this idea. "That's one of the big draws to latex is the ability to oversaturate prints". That is asking for trouble. There is a very fine line as to where you can go with over saturation with Latex. It is not at all like aqueous or solvent in that regard. Once you get to a certain ink density, going higher has a negative effect.

Now that being said in one of your earlier post you mentioned using 10 pass so I was assuming you could not go over 120% ink density. So what are the ink density and pass setting you're using on the media in question?

I ran a L25500 for a few years, but with the L360 being a contone device without much control of the inks I got to testing the onboard settings. With vinyl in particular I tested backlit settings to see what would happen when setting ink densities high. What I found even with 220% I could get what appeared to be adequate drying but saw not improvement in saturation. I fact I saw the opposite. Colors had a more milky appearance in exactly the same way that I saw with too high ink limits on the L25500. When I compared 12 pass at 120% with 12 pass at 200% the 120% looked better. Like I said there is a fine line where setting the ink high has a negative effect. What seems best for vinyls is 10 or 12 pass at 120% ink densities and the OP at 18 and increase the airflow slightly. But be carful setting the OP too high as it is figured into the total ink.

Now on the other hand some media does benefit with higher ink loads but vinyl is not one of them. Now PVC Banner is another story. I would live to do 6 pass at 120 and set the temp to 241.

 

[FishnSigns]

Hey Dypinc. Sorry, I should have clarified. The oversaturation comment was related to backlit applications. When printing IJ180 or Arlon 6000 we are running 10 pass at 110% saturation. Much more than 110% the detail gets lost (from what we've found). So the delam issues shouldn't be tied to oversaturation.

We have built a couple of special profiles for backlit faces where we increase the pass count and lay quite a bit of ink down, the colors hold up better when backlit but if you look close, the quality isn't that great.

 

[dypinc]

Hey Dypinc. Sorry, I should have clarified. The oversaturation comment was related to backlit applications. When printing IJ180 or Arlon 6000 we are running 10 pass at 110% saturation. Much more than 110% the detail gets lost (from what we've found). So the delam issues shouldn't be tied to oversaturation.

We have built a couple of special profiles for backlit faces where we increase the pass count and lay quite a bit of ink down, the colors hold up better when backlit but if you look close, the quality isn't that great.

When you start losing detail with higher ink settings that is a clear indication that your OP need bumped up a little. There is a nice onboard test that will show you what effect different levels of OP will give you.

Back to your laminator are you sure you don't have a flat spot on your rollers? Is the delimitation area random or is there a pattern to it like the circumference of a laminator roller?

 

[FishnSigns]

Good tip on the OP.

No pattern to the delam, I think the laminator is good. When it fails, it's usually in a ripping pattern similar to the photo. I know what you are talking about though, we used to fight a flat spot on our old laminator that drove us nuts in the old print/lam/mount days before we bought our flatbed and new laminator.

 

[AF]

I think you need to fully investigate every part of your workflow. Is the material stored correctly? No source of heat hitting stored rolls, like the Sun or a space heater? Is ther a cat on the premises? Any way that contamination is getting on the prints? Since you are the only one with this problem and it doesn't matter which material you use, it leads one to suspect that the problem is user related and/or environmental. Could be an install issue, perhaps the material is heated too much with the torch in some spots that then later fail.

 

[FishnSigns]

Super clean shop, our entire facility is HVAC controlled, hate cats, no dogs (love dogs), our post heat/torch process hasn't changed in 8 years (could be a fluke but we've laid down a lot of vinyl). Good ideas but I think we are covered. Has to be a printer/install/profile/ink problem in my opinion. I'm still open to trying different things to solve the issue, just seems like everything we try/adjust doesn't fix the problem. I'm hoping for a reply from HP after ISA. They have material samples in their lab and have their experts looking at it. Fingers crossed.

 

[SignsInTime]

tech

Im sure glad Im not the only one that experiences ultra-obscure tech problems...it seems like when we have trouble, we're the only ones in the world that its ever happened to. I once had an actual Graphtec tech tell me to unplug the serial data cable to our plotter and pour out the bad data...... I dont have anything useful to add other than...we feel your pain, lol.