Discussion I know my answer already, what's yours...........................

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

This is one small part of a much larger job, as Gino mentioned in the original post. A larger job that includes several different signs is probably the type of job that you should request brand guidelines if the client doesn't include them initially.

What I mean is why invest so much time into showing them other companies guidelines? Even if by extent this is a much larger project, to battle with the stubborn is a fools' errand.

 

[fresh]

I make my suggestions. Its up to them to accept my expertise. If they know better, and "that's just the way its gotta be" then do what they ask. Eventually you'll re-do it at their cost.

AND I always suggest people look around and see what others are doing. Find someone else with black window lettering, and see if you like it! If they can't find anyone, then maybe its because it doesn't work. Also, it takes 3 minutes to stick a piece of white vinyl and a piece of black vinyl on your window so they can see the difference.

 

[SignosaurusRex]

With all due respect Gino, I'm surprised that you did not address this issue at the start when you were asked to quote the job. With that said, I know it is easy to overlook a detail like this when quoting the job. As well experienced professionals, we can and do get to a point where we assume that we have license to make a judgement call on an issue like this. Ya just gotta love dealing with these corporate "Branding" kids that don't thoroughly address the full gamut of possibilities let alone the most common applications.

My response: " Yes sir, the corporate branding, it's visual clarity and impact is most omnipotent. In some cases there are exceptions to the base rules of display if not clearly addressed in the branding guidelines. In this case we are dealing with Black on Black as the mind's eye sees it. In my professional opinion, we should use White...and I will bet that the powers that be, will approve. If they don't, I will not charge for the change. If they change it to Black and then decide to change it back to White, it will be with a color change fee."

Get it in writing and charge accordingly. If they want you to change it to Black...and then back to White. Get it in writing and CHARGE accordingly. $$$

 

[Gino]

When I did the first mockup/proof, I just naturally did it with white copy and they called me on it. When I did a proof with it black, as y'all can see in my example, he wrote back, he thinks it's better with the white, but I'm not abiding by their guidelines, so I just waited for them to figure it out. It costs me the same white or black and either color goes on the glass with the same ease.

About 6 this morning, they said the white copy will be just fine.

Signguy wins again..... over corporate America. ​

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Since this is your thread, I'll cover you on this one...

I like happy endings.

 

[E Coloney]

Put a line on your quote that says, "Valid for 30 days, only."

 

[Gino]

Put a line on your quote that says, "Valid for 30 days, only."

That's already on there, but does anyone you know read all the details or just the price at the bottom and then question the numbers ?? Besides, there was no question on their part about it being higher. They were fine with that.

 

[Superior_Adam]

Customer is always right.....right? I will suggest that it is not going to work well with black but if they insist I do it black. Then when they are not happy I can say remember that conversation that the black would not work good, then charge them to change them all.

 

[signpro]

I agree with the others, ask for a copy of their branding guidelines.
if they disagree, take it off, do it in black for them! customer gets what they want, even when they are wrong.
put it on your invoice that 'white was suggested, but done it black per customer request'
and then if they want it re-done it white again, tell them you've already changed it once no charge, this time it's on them.
and get the check up front for the change!

good luck

 

[Gino]

Yep, I get it.

Problem is, I've been doing this for a lo-o-o-ong time and some things just make sense and other things just add headache and cost. There's no reason explaining their own guidelines to them and trying to interpret them and wasting my time. I know there are only two possible outcomes. Either black or white. In this case one can truly say this is a case of black and white at its peak. No grey matter inbetween. Doing samples and making ultimatums is just costing everyone more time and money. I don't believe in that. I cut right to the chase. Here's what ya want and here is what I suggested. One or the other, please. Then, I go to town and knock it out. If they call back and say, it doesn't look good, it becomes a new job ticket as the quote, invoice and e-mails all serve me as my paper trail, that they were dumb about this and went about it wrong. In the meantime, I'm working on all the other signs which are really the big ticket items. This job is several thousand dollars and I'm not gonna get caught up in a $175. matter.

I only posted this whole thing to kinda give an actual problem scenario and listen to all of the input. Like the title says, I already know MY answer, I just wanted to know how others feel.

 

[Gino]

Ever have a customer insist on their logo printed on clear for the same scenario?
Me: "You will only see it after dark when the office lights are on."
Genius Customer: "Oh I'm sure it will look fine, plus I want to see it while looking out the door!"

Is that your standard print + cut door vinyl price? If so that's spot on with my in town price.

Sorta, I'm only replacing the logo itself, not the copy directly under it or at the bottom. Just the emblem and the word microchip. If I was replacing all that other stuff, too..... be about $265. plus if I hadda remove any old vinyl.

 

[SheBeau]

They don’t know their own brand policy. Here THEY use the white logo.

 

[Gino]

In all fairness, like I mentioned earlier, this design is known. The debacle was putting it on glass. I guess they figured glass is clear or light in color, since you can see through it, but didn't understand the properties of glass looking dark from the outside in, especially on privacy glass.

 

[Abraxas Aguilera]

Have a customer that had me quote a job 13 months ago. They recently re-visited the quote and now want to move forward. I told them costs have gone up and put the quote up about $375. more. No problem, They excepted it all over again. Here's the dilemma...........

Their logo is red white and black which is fine for most of their signs, but they have two glass doors which are privacy doors and I automatically changed their black copy to white. Looked great, but the guy e-mails me back and says something about violating the branding guidelines. Ah, excuse me ?? You can't see black on glass, unless you're on the inside looking out and the nice blue sky is showing from behind. I told him there are times when corporate is wrong and they should take a closer look..... or why bother at all lettering the door ?? I said, why not a sign right above the door ?? I left them with decide and let me know, I'll letter anyway you desire.

So, how do you convince someone their idea is really really stupid ??

View attachment 141553

"The money is always right... I mean, the customer is always right." Mr Krabs

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

Been there, done that. I gave my opinion and the business owner didn't want to hear it. To people walking by on the sidewalk, the black shows up alright, but from street level, you can barely see a thing. I think the dark grey on the door may have been an even worse choice than the black.

 

[Big Rice Field]

Any designer knows that black vinyl on windows does not show up at all. That is basic knowledge. Make a sample black copy and white copy and put it on a window to demonstrate.

 

[Baz]

Any designer knows that black vinyl on windows does not show up at all. That is basic knowledge. Make a sample black copy and white copy and put it on a window to demonstrate.

Unless of course they have white shades or drapes. Then black is appropriate.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

Any designer knows that black vinyl on windows does not show up at all. That is basic knowledge. Make a sample black copy and white copy and put it on a window to demonstrate.

Even so, when the customer insists on doing it his way after being advised to do otherwise, do you turn the job down? Heck no, you take the money, do the job, and move on.

 

[jimbug72]

Yeah, scrape it off put the black on. If they are capable of realizing how stupid it looks, charge them double the normal rate to scrape that off (and cover your loss for the first scraping) then charge them to do it back in white again. They'll already have a real life example of how much better it will look in white.

 

[boxerbay]

CV is cheap. Redo it the way they want. Eventually the regional manager will show up and notice you cant read it then they will sort it out internally and call you to come back and do it white. you get paid twice.