IS COLOR MATCHING EVEN POSSIBLE??

[dypinc]

Are you creating these color substitute test samples each time you need to match a questionable color?

Depends how critical the color match is. So not every time, and with the HP Professional Pantone Emulation most colors are on or close enough with the Latex. But once in a while and with high gamut colors I usually do if they are not close. And some colors aren't hittable, more so with certain media. I can hit 187 pretty close but 186 is a struggle with the latex.

With a high gamut printer like the Aqueous inkjet using the Spot Color libraries with lab values it is rarely necessary.

 

[dypinc]

You can, but have you never been bit by a computer crash, or program update gone awry?

But have you never backup up your computer and software?

 

[Andy_warp]

I'm curious about this. The sheet took a thousand man hours to create?

Having to match a color every time it comes up is very time consuming. That is how it was done here before I started.
A thousand may have been extreme.

 

[Andy_warp]

In Onyx I would have just created a spot color library and maintained it. We run dye sublimation, so things are a little dicey with color. Our cyan is almost like pms300c.
With our smallish color gamut, when colors are off they are really off. What I do like about dye sub is I really only have to maintain one profile for the transfer paper.
We stock material that has very similar white points.
Some spot colors have a "correction" of their own for different fabrics.

If we were working with a larger color gamut, corrections would be needed much less frequently.

The main goal for me was to have the ability to desaturate a color photo, save in both colorspaces and output to neutral.
Once you get there it is all fine tuning, right?!

The uncalibrated/unprofiled workflow I walked into had silver coins looking like gold and skin tones looking like the Mos Eisley Cantina.

 

[Andy_warp]

There are additional things to consider:

Color is reflected light. So it could happen that the same print, viewed under different light conditions, can look different. The reference light for ICC-Profiling is named D50, a light similar to daylight. There are light indicator strips available which helps to judge the light conditions. At my last job, I cannot check colors directly at the printer ... I got reddish grey. Check the colors under daylight have worked. In the demo room on my current job, we have special standard lights emitting D50.

An other issue is the printer and the environmental conditions: specially thermal inkjet printers are very sensitive to changes in temperature or humidity. Even a difference in failing nozzles can be a problem. You can only compensate this by repeating linearization on a regular basis.

Media could vary from one roll to another or from one production batch to the other. The problems arise because of this can only be solved by permanent profile maintenance (doing at minimum linearization from one roll to the other).

Switching profiles to off could work if using one media, but could lead to differences as soon as using different media. Could be a good choice to switch off color management if using some standard profiles downloaded anywhere, or have no clue about what the color management settings mean, but the best way is to create own profiles.

We deal with metamerism fairly frequently. The problem is every showhall in the country has different temperature ambient light. We have to seam 100-200' long covers together to create one cohesive image. The roll to roll differences are no joke. I'm limited to the size of stock I can get my hands on for some projects. We also run into alignment issues if anything gets printed out of order. Our finishing process involves tension heat and pressure. We haven't had much luck seaming together different rolls of stock. Sheen angles and differences become a problem too. Printing large stuff like this can be a one off type process. The problem with proofing is I can't reproduce all of the variables on a 24"x24" proof that I will encounter in printing a 50' long wall. Things like inkload, humidity and fabric batches are all factors. We also have the obstacle of how easily the fabric lets the gas pass through. My magenta burns off first, so some of the less breathable woven fabrics come out warmer in color temperature.

The biggest thing I learned getting in to this method of print is how impactful a little process control can be. Not only in your digital workflow but in environmental conditions. I have to shrink wrap my stock within 10 minutes or the transfer paper does what it is designed to do, soak up moisture like a sponge. There is just so much surface area exposed at one time!
If this happens we have feed problems and get color reticulation in heavy builds. (it looks like mottling)
I print in Seattle, so fighting the humidity is tough.
I see issues on this forum quite often where the problem is more one of these issues than icc profiles, rip formats/settings or printer maintenance stuff.
I do all of the tech work on my equipment so it sure makes trouble shooting easier!

 

[Andy_warp]

A down and dirty, simple way to deal with 90% of your customers;
1 download the PMS color chart I attached
2 import it into your design software & save that file in a place easy to find
3 export, rip & print it as you normally would.
4 Laminate and mount to a substrate of your choice
5 have a customer pick a color from your printed chart.
6 go back into the file you saved & copy that color, don't assume a PMS color on the chart is
the same as a PMS color called out on your software's color pallet.
7 you will want create a chart for all of the design programs you use; photoshop, AI, Corel Draw, etc.

A great workflow that gets around full on profiling. At the minimum you want to be linearized and calibrated.
When you do this in the best profile your ink can give you it works even better!

 

[ColorCrest]

Our cyan is almost like pms300c.

What is "our cyan"?

 

[ColorCrest]

A down and dirty, simple way to deal with 90% of your customers;
1 download the PMS color chart I attached
2 import it into your design software & save that file in a place easy to find
3 export, rip & print it as you normally would.
4 Laminate and mount to a substrate of your choice
5 have a customer pick a color from your printed chart.
6 go back into the file you saved & copy that color, don't assume a PMS color on the chart is
the same as a PMS color called out on your software's color pallet.
7 you will want create a chart for all of the design programs you use; photoshop, AI, Corel Draw, etc.

Step 2 & 3 - What's the purpose of the import and export?
Step 5 - How does a customer do this? Do they need to come to your shop or do you need to send them chart(s)?
Step 6 - Copy the color how, exactly, and then do what?
Step 7 - Why create charts for all the design programs? In what way are they different in regards to handling color?

(No worries as I'm in no rush for answers.)

 

[Andy D]

Step 2 & 3 - What's the purpose of the import and export?
Step 5 - How does a customer do this? Do they need to come to
(No worries as I'm in no rush for answers.)

Yeah on my phone now, will reply tomorrow.

My only problem with this is the folks who get to make the call on colors cannot be bothered by coming out and looking. Usually I profile here and send it out to the customer with the salesman for approval.

When you're getting to the end of your vinyl or banner roll, print a bunch of smaller ones to put up front or drop in the mail.

 

[Andy_warp]

What is "our cyan"?

The dye sub ink.

Had an Israeli made hp scitex when I started, the cyan for that was like royal blue. Getting to anything cyan was impossible. It was always periwinkle. We printed for HP with it, part of the deal was I had to use their machine...but I couldn’t hit their brand color!

I told them as much in a conference call, and stated I could hit 2995c all day long with my mimaki

Audible gasps...about 3 months later HP reformulated the cyan and light cyan ink for the machine! Lol! The gamut was way better. Had it at delta e 3.6. Unfortunately it was slow! My Evo is literally four times faster. On a thirty foot reprint, that is a lot!

Still have “Edna” unplugged and in the shop floor. The beauty of profiling is I guarantee I can load my print profile put in new/fresh heads, and hit any color I ever printed on it!

I miss Edna sometimes. I was told that I couldn’t even profile dye sub...did it! For awhile there every print was like Christmas!

 

[Andy D]

We deal with metamerism fairly frequently. The problem is every showhall in the country has different temperature ambient light. We have to seam 100-200' long covers together to create one cohesive image. The roll to roll differences are no joke. I'm limited to the size of stock I can get my hands on for some projects. We also run into alignment issues if anything gets printed out of order. Our finishing process involves tension heat and pressure. We haven't had much luck seaming together different rolls of stock. Sheen angles and differences become a problem too. Printing large stuff like this can be a one off type process. The problem with proofing is I can't reproduce all of the variables on a 24"x24" proof that I will encounter in printing a 50' long wall. Things like inkload, humidity and fabric batches are all factors. We also have the obstacle of how easily the fabric lets the gas pass through. My magenta burns off first, so some of the less breathable woven fabrics come out warmer in color temperature.

The biggest thing I learned getting in to this method of print is how impactful a little process control can be. Not only in your digital workflow but in environmental conditions. I have to shrink wrap my stock within 10 minutes or the transfer paper does what it is designed to do, soak up moisture like a sponge. There is just so much surface area exposed at one time!
If this happens we have feed problems and get color reticulation in heavy builds. (it looks like mottling)
I print in Seattle, so fighting the humidity is tough.
I see issues on this forum quite often where the problem is more one of these issues than icc profiles, rip formats/settings or printer maintenance stuff.
I do all of the tech work on my equipment so it sure makes trouble shooting easier!

Holy smokes dude, that sounds like a nightmare! I guess if production messes up a middle panel, you have little to no hope of reprinting and have it look even close to correct, huh?

 

[Andy_warp]

Step 2 & 3 - What's the purpose of the import and export?
Step 5 - How does a customer do this? Do they need to come to your shop or do you need to send them chart(s)?
Step 6 - Copy the color how, exactly, and then do what?
Step 7 - Why create charts for all the design programs? In what way are they different in regards to handling color?

(No worries as I'm in no rush for answers.)

ColorCrest If a file gets to our rip with a named spot from Illustrator and Indesign, that color prints the same. If effects or a raster image is below it, indesign converts it all to process. I also just had image link issues come up with a recent project. The image is the same exact link, but color is blocked up and saturated from indesign. From Illustrator it’s less saturated with truer skin tones. We see this often. Color management is synched between apps. I don’t get it. Any ideas? You and I contested this in a post a month ago, and I was shitty about it. My want for understanding is bigger than my ego, however so I seriously am asking what could be the culprit. I always see great pragmatic info in your responses.

 

[Andy_warp]

Holy smokes dude, that sounds like a nightmare! I guess if production messes up a middle panel, you have little to no hope of reprinting and have it look even close to correct, huh?

Yeah dude! We have to straight up stop the presses until it can be reprinted, then production can commence in order. The transfer paper is cheap compared to the fabric, so if we catch it before the transfer it’s usually good.

It happened to me on this 200’ back wall and some of the image seams were like 6” off! There was an awesome av and lighting team, and the art was painterly. The overall size of it also made it less noticeable, but it was in between 2 or 3 panels on either side! Frightening stuff! Never again!

 

[Andy D]

ColorCrest You and I contested this in a post a month ago, and I was shitty about it. My want for understanding is bigger than my ego, however so I seriously am asking what could be the culprit. I always see great pragmatic info in your responses.

The light bulb just went on, I get it now...
Colorcrest fancies himself the resident guru on all things color & likes to call people out, correct?

 

[Andy_warp]

The light bulb just went on, I get it now...
Colorcrest fancies himself the resident guru on all things color & likes to call people out, correct?

I think Colorcrest has a lot to offer to this forum. People (me included) are not always the best at putting their conundrums into helpful talking terms. Most everything I’ve seen from him/her/them has been pretty spot on. For the most part we all have different setups so nomenclature can get muddy. Some of the problems I encounter are 100% adobe problems. I refuse to accept that their software is perfect and I’m doing it wrong when I pour my heart and soul into projects. The day I think I know it ALL is the day I throw in the towel!

 

[Andy D]

I have no idea of Colorcrests background, so I'm not speaking of him specifically, but the problem I have with many techs that have never been in production is that they live in a controlled environment fantasy world. Sure they can get a printer zeroed in and printing great in a 8 hour window, with specific test prints and specfic environments, but they can be clueless to all of the real life hurtles the average pre-press person has to go over to make a great print.

 

[Andy_warp]

I have no idea of Colorcrests background, so I'm not speaking of him specifically, but the problem I have with many techs that have never been in production is that they live in a controlled environment fantasy world. Sure they can get a printer zeroed in and printing great in a 8 hour window, with specific test prints and specfic environments, but they can be clueless to all of the real life hurtles the average pre-press person has to go over to make a great print.

I agree! The same goes with printer specs in their sales propaganda!

“It can run 9 million square feet an hour”

The bitch of it is, if we do our job right the end customer has no idea! It’s fairly thankless. I try to keep an open mind, and if what I’m discussing is a hurdle I’ve gotten over, but someone disputes it, you’re gonna have to show me proof. I have failed in inkjet printing since 1997. Yep, done it all the hard way, but learned from the mistakes. A lot of the designs I see come through lack even a rudimentary foundational knowledge of software and print processes. I blame design schools and their syllabus(s). They glaze over print like it’s as easy as ctrl+p.

People trust what’s on screen and never delve in to the nuts and bolts of a file. Looking at it in outline view, studying the objects one by one in the layer/object palette and their hierarchy. You know, being confident in your constructs of a mechanical production file. Lucky for me, when I started I had clients that would be mortified if I found something hinky in their file. More and more I see the spaghetti on the wall approach.
“Does this work?” “How about this?” “ Am I getting warmer?!”

It can be frustrating when you’ve put in the time, and expended the energy to figure out how it works!

At least we don’t have the dam adobe type manager anymore! I remember ripping .ps files from page maker to make a dang pdf.
Missing font - crash
Missing link - crash
Text box - 90 degrees off for some reason

The software is so much better now, but following best working procedures still seems to be out of people’s wheelhouses.

 

[Andy D]

Yep, I started color correction 30 plus years ago at my family's custom photo business, when it was light going through Cyan, Magenta & Yellow glass filters... And wide/grand format printing for around 15-20 years. While I certainly don't know it all, I have seen it all, bum, ta, da, bum, bum (farmers market insurance commercial) I have worked on and color profiled dozens of different printers and most rip programs. I can name 20 plus things that affect quality/color on a day to day basis, from change in humidity and/ or temperature, how the file is saved, stepping, air in the line, and one printer company had a good printer but sucked at paying their bills so they had to find a new ink provider every other month, that one took awhile to figure out.

 

[Andy_warp]

Yep, I started color correction 30 plus years ago at my family's custom photo business, when it was light going through Cyan, Magenta & Yellow glass filters... And wide/grand format printing for around 15-20 years. While I certainly don't know it all, I have seen it all, bum, ta, da, bum, bum (farmers market insurance commercial) I have worked on and color profiled dozens of different printers and most rip programs. I can name 20 plus things that affect quality/color on a day to day basis, from change in humidity and/ or temperature, how the file is saved, stepping, air in the line, and one printer company had a good printer but sucked at paying their bills so they had to find a new ink provider every other month, that one took awhile to figure out.

Sweet! Reprographics was where I started. Running diazo, and helping in the photo dept. black and white, but big prints. The first time I started Photoshop I was hooked!
Been a tech on Oce engineering printers, Kip, xerox. I’ve run all the front ends. Even had a Splash rip (it was Mac! a blue gel G3) for the xerox color copier. This thing didn’t even print in sets.

I’ve put in two nemesis boards, a power distro board, printheads and re ran an ink line in our Evo. Maintenance time I take all the heads out (32) Eeks it gets hairy. The tech for our heat press is in the Netherlands.

I get the added benefit of geometry challenges that curved fabric shapes come with. Rhino is fun, and lets us pull of stuff like this (attached). It went to one of the Ted talks. They gave us a flat image of the earth! We didn’t even have access to the structure! I developed surfaces, flattened and Illustrator templates the shape. My prepress partner has twenty something years in too. We’re curmudgeons but know how to get repeatable results!

No day is the same. I love it!

Edit: What we do wouldn’t be much if our awesome cutting/sewing team and frame department weren’t killer craftsman too! Intimidating talent between our four walls!

Thanks for sharing your background AndyD!

 

[Bly]

Sweet! Reprographics was where I started. Running diazo, and helping in the photo dept. black and white, but big prints. The first time I started Photoshop I was hooked!
Been a tech on Oce engineering printers, Kip, xerox. I’ve run all the front ends. Even had a Splash rip (it was Mac! a blue gel G3) for the xerox color copier. This thing didn’t even print in sets.

I’ve put in two nemesis boards, a power distro board, printheads and re ran an ink line in our Evo. Maintenance time I take all the heads out (32) Eeks it gets hairy. The tech for our heat press is in the Netherlands.

I get the added benefit of geometry challenges that curved fabric shapes come with. Rhino is fun, and lets us pull of stuff like this (attached). It went to one of the Ted talks. They gave us a flat image of the earth! We didn’t even have access to the structure! I developed surfaces, flattened and Illustrator templates the shape. My prepress partner has twenty something years in too. We’re curmudgeons but know how to get repeatable results!

No day is the same. I love it!

Edit: What we do wouldn’t be much if our awesome cutting/sewing team and frame department weren’t killer craftsman too! Intimidating talent between our four walls!

Thanks for sharing your background AndyD!

We had a Splash running a Xerox 1250!
It was a lame duck compared to what we have now but that G3 sure looked pretty in the shop.