It's only gonna get tougher

[GoodPeopleFlags]

I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but I've entered some contests on 99designs. I get why some people hate it... really. And the contest holders aren't going to get the personal service they would by paying a personal designer. But the site (and others like it) are going to continue to exist. I saw a couple of contests that I knew I could knock something out quickly and possibly make some extra money. If I didn't win, I was only out an hour or so of my time that I would have spent playing on Facebook anyway.

The contest holders get a decent design for less money than hiring a designer directly. But they don't get the personal service. Pros and cons. I'm not defending it! Just sayin'...

 

[Colin]

Actually there IS some very good work on there. Unfortunately for every job on there, that means several hundred people did work on spec in every instance

This type of business affects freelancers and the self employed more than sign shops. You may not be saying the same thing in 10 years as more and more people do their shopping online

Yes, I've seen some very impressive work on 99Designs. Yes, there is some poor work entered, and stuff that is very good but overly "glammed up" with effects (which often wows the unsuspecting customer) but overall the customer gets to choose from a whole host of designers and a variety of styles. I have to admit, it's a pretty neat system, it just frosts me that it has an effect on my business, and other local, North American businesses. How can we compete with the guy in a totaly different economy who thinks that $150.00 is a lot of money.

 

[Gino]

Actually there IS some very good work on there. Unfortunately for every job on there, that means several hundred people did work on spec in every instance

This type of business affects freelancers and the self employed more than sign shops. You may not be saying the same thing in 10 years as more and more people do their shopping online

Oh-h-h-h..... believe me, I know this whole industry is going to be a WHOLE lot different in 10 years..... maybe even less at the rate its going now.

Like I said, being old school..... we must tend to attract the same kind of customers because many of them don't see or can imagine what they want on line and ask us to produce what's in their heads. Sometimes it's like pulling teeth, but we seem to have the knack for it.
I agree that there is some really good work on the internet, but that's not my cup a tea. Thanks goodness for me, we don't depend on the internet except for sending and receiving files and such. We only get a few requests a day from our site on quotes for signs, designs/logos and installations. We pick and choose which ones we want to concentrate on and get back to them first. The ones that appear to be tire kickers or the $99 customers, we call back without feeling compelled to bend over backwards for them. Those we don't mind losing.

We do a lot of wholesaling via the internet and that's what I like best..... shops that know what they want and can spend without any bullchit in between.

Sorry Colin, if I misunderstood, but these fast internet times and methods of doing business sometimes elude me. Luckily, we have people here that can tune me in when I'm missing something.

I guess my question should've been.... how much of your work comes in via the internet ?? In that way, I can see it effecting you if you depend on it as a good or main source. We don't.... so my bad......

 

[Colin]

I haven't heard of these guys until your post, where are they doing their ad blitz?

Really? I'm surprised. They're advertising everywhere; Youtube, heck, I was just looking at a gaming forum for Gran Turismo and there was their ads!

 

[Colin]

I guess my question should've been.... how much of your work comes in via the internet? In that way, I can see it effecting you if you depend on it as a good or main source. We don't.... so my bad.

I suppose that something like 99% of my logo design work has been local. I guess my point is that even the local potential customer will be lured to crowd-sourcing.

 

[wetgravy]

these type of sites only attract the cheapest of customers.. My logo designs never suffered a drop in sales and still have yet to lose momentum. People know just by word of mouth that I'm not the cheapest, but I give them full rights, never use cookie cutter designs and that I have killer customer service. While some might say "but they might have paid ME instead" ... I personally know that I constantly lose internet sales to people in india and foreign countries just because they can actually do it for cheaper and in the past 10 years have never gone for those customers. I prefer real customers that I can personally interact with and sell to because you can give them the personal attention that most people want with a designer. Let 99designs keep the cheapies.

 

[Colin]

I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but I've entered some contests on 99designs. I get why some people hate it... really. And the contest holders aren't going to get the personal service they would by paying a personal designer. But the site (and others like it) are going to continue to exist.

I have entered many contests on 99Designs and haven't won one.

A couple things which I have found:

- Many contest holders will choose a design which does not match their declared design "brief" as it's termed. I remember one where the person said that they did not want a crown in the design, but the one they ultimately chose had a crown in it!!!!!!! Or they'll say that they wany something simple that can be reproduced with embriodery etc, but they choose some Photoshoped monster of complexity. Gah!

- Some will choose a crappy design over loads of awesome designs, and you're left realizing that you are battling the contest holder's bad taste.

 

[2972renfro]

OK Colin what gives. First you are complaining about it and now you admit to participating. If you participate you are only contributing to the problem and making it viable

What you should be saying is that you are mad that you took the time to design something and lost out to someone. That is your own fault

 

[Colin]

OK Colin what gives. First you are complaining about it and now you admit to participating. If you participate you are only contributing to the problem and making it viable

It was about a year ago when I learned of it, when things were slow, and I genuinely wanted to see how it all worked. I thought that I might actually expand my business, but through the exercise, learned that I was competing with designers from around the globe, and have learned that it's not a good use of time.

I am not merely "complaining about it", but just stating the way things have gone (and will likely continue to go). I did say that I regard it as a pretty neat system.

What you should be saying is that you are mad that you took the time to design something and lost out to someone. That is your own fault

Uh, no. Please don't read in and conclude too much.

 

[2972renfro]

OK, I see where you are coming from.

 

[Rick]

Colin, this debate was going on way longer than a year... you really should have figured out that the only ones making money is the site hosting it... if they do 790k a month, and they get 10%, thats some nice cash to pocket... if you do a "logoworks" search, you will see varying comments...

my comments on this type of stuff as the same through the years...

---It's hard to shop for design.
---The sign industry as a whole is no better, if not worse at designing logos as these sites are.
--- Designers (including sign designers) are known to be flakey, a generalization that seems to always come up..
--- Factor in the DIY movement.
--- At the click of a button you can get a logo spit out with little hassle, kinda like an ATM.
---Design organizations have not helped in promoting design.
---A few marketing clowns who claim to be experts in business write neat little articles about online design, watering down our worth with generalizations... I can't wait for 99dollarmarketinggoons.com
--- the only one making money is the hosting site.
---Google "logo design" and logo mills are usually on top.
---Sign designers (and quite a few graphic designers) offer only limited print options, offering very little in service, if it can be done cheaper and look the same.. cheaper will win.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

I feel like I'm one of the few who see this as an opportunity, rather than a bad thing.

Let 'em go there.

The question remains, what is YOUR shop doing to distinguish THEIR services versus some of these other so-called 'options'? If you can't distinguish in your customer's mind why you offer a better value and service for your work, then, yeh, you probably should be very scared.

 

[Colin]

The question remains, what is YOUR shop doing to distinguish THEIR services versus some of these other so-called 'options'?

I find that it usually lands upon deaf ears. Just like sign design, most people will not care about the value of the sign, just the price.

If you can't distinguish in your customer's mind why you offer a better value and service for your work, then, yeh, you probably should be very scared.

I can tell a potential customer how I will offer:

- a more personalized service

- depth of knowledge of how files need to be properly generated & saved

- future assistance with any tweeks or misc needs

...etc, but when they look at my fee of $495.00 vs $150-$200, most of the time they're going to go with the lower price.

And I have to admit, they just might get more out of a place like 99Designs, as they are now getting the designs from a large number of brains, not just one. The contest process allows them to communicate with each designer and make any number of design & color changes until they're happy.

Even at the end of it, if one isn't happy with the designs, one doesn't have to accept any of 'em.

 

[Joe Diaz]

There are plenty of fish in the sea. If you're not catching any, try different bait.

 

[Colin]

There are plenty of fish in the sea. If you're not catching any, try different bait.

But I guess one of the main points in the O/P is that the water we're fishing in is literally being saturated with lures from a commercial fisherman; so my odds of catching a fish with my wee little lure is getting tougher.

 

[Gino]

But I guess one of the main points in the O/P is that the water we're fishing in is literally being saturated with lures from a commercial fisherman; so my odds of catching a fish with my wee little lure is getting tougher.

Don't tell the girls about that part.

 

[Joe Diaz]

The point is this: You don't like these sites? Fine. What are you going to do about it?

You have no control over your competition and how they market themselves and how they price out their work. So forget about them for a second.

You can't control how people seek out services. So forget about that for a second.

The only thing you can control is you.

The work is there. Trust me on this. These sites haven't made a dent in all the potential jobs available. If you aren't getting work, then the only thing you can do to change that is make changes on your end. Because you can't make changes on their end.

 

[CES020]

I think it's an overreaction. People from every generation have said the same thing. Digital media was going to kill the industry. Yet people are still finding new, unique ways to use the new media every day. It's called progress.

I used one of those sites several years ago. Why? Because I didn't have the $1,500 I was quoted by someone. I didn't "need" a logo, I "wanted" a logo. I thought I could spend a little money out there and get something decent. I dropped $200 or $250 or something and thought it would be great. People would post stuff and I'd put comments like "I'd like PMSXXX and PMSXXX or something in that color range, and I'd like this and that". So what's posted for the next 5 logos? Nothing I asked for. Nothing. None of the colors, none of the themes I wanted. Nothing.

In the end, people stopped trying and I was left with a couple people still trying but not listening to me at all. I gave up, my money all got forfeited to the person the site owners thought deserved it and I got nothing in return.

They didn't have the "money back" policy.

No big deal, live and learn. I can tell you one thing, I'll never use a site like that again.

I think it's perfectly fine to have it though. I know several small businesses that have used sites like this. They are looking for $150-$250 logos, and my guess is most people on this forum don't do many $150 logos. That's where I think Gino is right. These are not the people that are sitting in a corporate office working through the budget thinking "put down $150 for a new logo for us", they are people that know and respect the fact that a solid logo can cost some money.

There's high end and low end in most markets. I don't think these sites are at the medium or high end of services offered. It's keeps the bottom feeders on the bottom, making them all believe they got a real bargain and pulled one over on that designer guy that wanted $1,500.

Just my opinion.

 

[Colin]

It keeps the bottom feeders on the bottom, making them all believe they got a real bargain and pulled one over on that designer guy that wanted $1,500.

But, if they did actually get a really good logo, complete with all of the proper electronic files for their $150 - $250, aren't they the winners?

 

[Dan Antonelli]

I find that it usually lands upon deaf ears. Just like sign design, most people will not care about the value of the sign, just the price.
.

If that really was the case then how am I able to sell logos for a couple grand or so, if people could get the same thing for a couple hundred?

Keep in mind - I was the sign guy selling logos for a couple hundred 10 year or so ago. But I made a very conscious decision on where I wanted to take my business, the direction I wanted to head, and from that point forward, my actions and game plan worked towards that end.

No, I'm not there yet- and not even close to where I want it to be. The potential for my business to grow further is huge, and I have much bigger plans for it which I hope to attain.

But ten years or so ago, roughly around the birth of my twins, this love of the craft became much less about loving the craft, and much more about making a good living first, then loving the art second. A few too many Letterheads meets with fantastically talented, yet penniless sign folks, and me with a hefty New Jersey mortgage & property taxes, a wife not working car payments - and suddenly - I realized I needed to change the focus and direction of business.

I also saw where the sign business was headed and decided it wasn't where I saw my future. Signs were being viewed as commodities. So I took my experience in advertising, and my background in signs, and carved out a niche that I saw small businesses (well, lets say, smart small businesses) needed. It was a slow transition, but a very well thought out and executed strategy.

So when you say it usually lands on deaf ears (and trust me, it still does for me as well at times), you may try to better arm yourself with better tools to help sell your services, your uniqueness and your expertise. I have found that case studies that illustrate your successes serve as the best tool to educate them.

I have a great close rate on those who can afford on us. On the others, some stretch their wallets for us after thinking long and hard about the value we bring. And many don't see it, or just simply, can't afford us. Fortunately, there's enough in the minority who seek us, that have the budget, and the intelligence to keep us busy.

And intelligence, as well as ego does play a big role. When a client looks at our services as a cost center, instead of a profit center, it's not a good match usually. The smarter ones know that we'll make them a lot more money than we'll ever cost them.

But the perception of your offerings - and your business, is going to play a huge role in whether they believe you are selling a commodity versus a service. And if you are selling a commodity, well then I wish you luck. It is ugly out there ----