Lam Separated From Vinyl, Again

[AF]

I can confirm that our L260 has no optimizer and has never had laminate adhesion issues on a properly cured print with any brand of media / lam. We go straight from printer to laminator 95% of the time.

 

[Bly]

You better check your information. The first 250 and the second 260 did not have optimizer.

Oh yeah of course my 25500 doesn't.
Hey it's early.
The 360s only had one optimizer channel though, the later ones have two.

 

[dypinc]

I haven't really noticed a difference with the higher optimizer, one reason we have it a little high is the lack of humidity up here. it's so dry that the ink can tend to migrate due to static. We ran a few test and found for us it's kind of a sweet spot for our temperature/environmental changes.

Seems like a humidifier is in order. Lack of humidity will cause many more problem than just that.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

I'm pretty sure(99.999%) on the HP latex 500 series the number of passes does not determine the amount of ink that gets layed down. The amount of ink is determined by the ink density.

I don't think that it's just the heat setting, but also the number of passes, ink density, optimizer levels and these differ with location and material. As far as the profile I use theirs and than tweek it to suit our needs.

I think if you wanna be technical...sure however I think one includes the other. When you increase the ink saturation, you need more passes, thus more passes is similar to saying more ink. You got my drift though.

 

[AKwrapguy]

I think if you wanna be technical...sure however I think one includes the other. When you increase the ink saturation, you need more passes, thus more passes is similar to saying more ink. You got my drift though.

When we were first messing around and building our profiles I did a 6 pass with 110% ink density at about 180 degrees..... it was messy to say the least.

 

[DrunknMonk]

I have had no issues with my Avery, inrun a 570, and print on Ora 5600, IJ180, Ora 3651.

I just ran 11,000 sqft of PLD, 1360 over IJ180.

I don't think it's the media, I usually spend an hour plus profiling myself. The downloadable profiles are all just starting points. 0 of my profiles are stock.


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Sign.ed, are you profiling reflective vinyls ? ive been told it cant be done

 

[Sign.ed]

Sign.ed, are you profiling reflective vinyls ? ive been told it cant be done

No. I usually print my reflective on my Roland XR-640, actually.


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[AKwrapguy]

Sign.ed, are you profiling reflective vinyls ? ive been told it cant be done

We print on reflective all the time with our 570's I've printed on 3m's HIP, DG, EG. I would stay away from the 7930 series and the 3290 for but their 680 series works great.

 

[DrunknMonk]

I'm not sure if it's the Overlam not sticking to the Latex ink or what. HP retailer tells me it's probably the laminator not putting enough pressure. I've never had this issue though with my Roland eco-sol.
Has anyone else out there seen this problem with theirs?
HP L560, Latex ink, Avery 1105, and happened with both 1060 & 1360 gloss laminates.

Kentucky Wraps did you manage to make it better, Im having the same problems with my New HP 365, media people says its HP problem, HP Dealer says its Media / profile problem

 

[DrunknMonk]

Kentucky Wraps did you manage to make it better, Im having the same problems with my New HP 365, media people says its HP problem, HP Dealer says its Media / profile problem

 

[dypinc]

There is a least one other thread going on about this. Mar 7, 2018 This was my finding.

Seems like Avery vinyl and Over-Laminates are a problem. And pressure is a possibility. We use a big Seal which uses air pressure which is set fairly high for over-laminating roll to roll.

There is probably no way to really report relative pressure, but it would still be interesting to have comments for those that do not see this problem and those that do on the possible pressure that are using.

 

[AF]

We need a standardized test to compare media and ink combinations. For example, mount a 1 inch wide by 12” long laminated strip to 0.080 aluminum and use a fish scale to measure laminate release tension at 90 degrees and 180 degrees pull angle. Since latex, we could have a 1 hour outgas before laminating and wait 24 hours after mounting before testing. Possibly even heat set with heat gun and infrared thermometer to a temp range for consistency.

 

[XtremeXccessories]

That's an interesting confidential memo. Would be nice if they let us in on the secret 3 freaking years ago...

 

[ThatGriffGuy]

How many people have had this issue?

 

[CreativeCreationGraphics]

How many people have had this issue?

I have

 

[XtremeXccessories]

I do regularly on my 360.

 

[ThatGriffGuy]

Thanks for the replies, I am curious if the issue is widespread or if the issue can be narrowed down to a single batch of parts. The company I work for runs several latex printers and we print primarily on IJ180C and IJ180CV3 with 8518 Laminate. We have never had the issue but I am curious if it has happened and not been reported by the customer. My boss swears it's a laminator/user issue but i'm sure it's just because we have not had the problem and have a Kala Mistral which he considers a god send. I am very concerned about this personally as I am in the process of building a new business around a HP Latex printer.

 

[the graphics co]

Thanks for the replies, I am curious if the issue is widespread or if the issue can be narrowed down to a single batch of parts. The company I work for runs several latex printers and we print primarily on IJ180C and IJ180CV3 with 8518 Laminate. We have never had the issue but I am curious if it has happened and not been reported by the customer. My boss swears it's a laminator/user issue but i'm sure it's just because we have not had the problem and have a Kala Mistral which he considers a god send. I am very concerned about this personally as I am in the process of building a new business around a HP Latex printer.

The issue is widespread. Those who haven't heard about it are just unaware to this point that the issue exists for them. Do a test on your lam, put a piece of masking tape across a print, laminate the print, cut the lam at the masking tape so you can easily lift the edge and pull. The laminate will come right off. This is worse on some brands than it is on others, but, it does affect all the brands i have tested. HP 360 and 365

 

[kazziu]

I think that HP knew right from the start that their inks cause problems with laminates, hence the whole "HP Latex inks don't need lamination as they're so much more scratch resistant than solvent" slogan. Yes they are much more resistant than Solvent but far from not needing a lamination for costly application like car wraps and so on... I think they consciously released an uncomplete product and hid the crap behind a comfortable slogan. Did someone acutally perform a test how strong the adhesion is compared to solvent printed vinyl on differen vinyl brands, i bet not.
As stated in the PDF"Give laminated samples time before applying them. The adhesion bond between the laminate and the self-adhesive vinyl will increase with time. A waiting time of 48-72 hours between lamination and the application process may be necessary when using low-tack laminates" - well well doesn't this contradict one of the main Latex doctrines?

"Ask your media provider/dealer for an alternative laminate with a stronger bond adhesion or a premasking tape with a less aggressive adhesion force." - i don't have the time to do a masters degree on the types of laminates my suppliers have in stock.

I did my masters on Liquid lamination on Latex prints - and i tell You, not one Liquid laminate stick to Latex inks.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

No, it still happens if we're not careful. Been using 3M180mC more with 8518. Just have to be careful.