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HP360 Lamination Problems

Discussion in 'Digital Printing' started by colin smyth, Feb 20, 2018.

  1. jfiscus

    jfiscus Adobe Shinobi

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    No issues with nozzles clogging on our 3 Epsons here, even on the two that have silver and white ink (only print using those a few times a year).

    HOWEVER, we did switch our RIP profiles to NOT use the orange ink on our 79670/70675 printers - the orange DOES FADE after a year, and Epson, just says "we don't warrant inks from fading" on those printers when it happens... On the new series you have the Ultrachrome MCS certified inks that are warranted from fading when used with 3M products. The spectrum of just using dual CMYK colors hits close enough for all our clients.
     
  2. perfectpdf

    perfectpdf Member

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    Is the orange fading only on non laminated materials or are you seeing this on laminated materials also? The Orange and Red inks on the S80 are not MCS certified from my understanding.
     
  3. FrankW

    FrankW Active Member

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    We had customers with that issue too. 3M for example recommends to don't apply the prints right after laminating, but let it stay for a day or two. And of course, be shure that the print is cured before laminating.
     
    • OMG / Wow! OMG / Wow! x 1
  4. k.a.s.

    k.a.s. Very Active Member

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    Ummmm this is not cool, I just switched to a HP less than a month ago. I read this thread today and tried it on a print and it seems to pull off easier than it should. I'm not sure that it is bad enough that it will delam on it's own but it should stick more than this. I would encourage everyone to try this.
     
  5. kazziu

    kazziu New Member

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    Adding to the topic, the same problem occurs while using a liquid laminate, i have tried laminates from all top brands in Europe, the adhesion is so poor that the laminate starts peeling off almost by itself, the laminate peels almost so easy like old skin after a sunburn. I have mentioned the topic on my homecountry board but it turned out nobody cared. I think this is a big deal, latex prints are in fact much more resistant to scratches and chemicals than solvent but You can easily scratch them with small sharp objects, bird poo cleans latex ink blank from the vinyl so lamintation is a must. I loved my liquid laminates for car wraps, 3 layers and the wrap was bulletproof, 3 times cheaper than roll lamination and 100% guarantee that the vinyl won't rise from the creases. For me this is the biggest problem with Latex, no one talks about it, and this is the first thread that actually picks it up.

    It shouldn't peel of easier in any case, the laminate should stick to the print like hell. What will You do when all the laminates start peeling of in a couple of years, i bet Your clients won't be pleased at all..
    HP should address this problem ASAP.
     
  6. AF

    AF Active Member

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    If the lam isn’t coming off on its own, it is technically doing its job. I have a 260 with plenty of laminated prints in harsh locations and haven’t had a delam. It is a shame that the new inks and consumables are not as reliable. I wouldn’t be surprised if some genius at HP added silicone to the ink to reduce scratching.
     
  7. dypinc

    dypinc Very Active Member

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    Did some testing of this issue today. Both tests were done on bleeds with 100% printer black only.

    3M IJ180CV3 & 8519 could not pull up lam no matter how hard I tried. This was after laminating about 2 hours after printing.

    General Formulation 201 & 401. With a some effort I could pull up the lam. Interesting thing this job had a shape to it with a large amount of non printed area outside of the printed bleed. The unprintable area pulled up seemingly just as easy as the printed area. This vinyl was printed and laminated over a week ago, with probably 2 days between the printing and over-laminating.

    This whole issue is puzzling as it seems to be more than just the generation 3 ink being the factor.
     
  8. XtremeXccessories

    XtremeXccessories Member

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    We've definitely had this issue with our 360. Have to be very careful when wrapping near a section already completed (side print of vehicle overlapping the hood or bumper then trimming and removing). Pulls away especially easily when pulling up trimmed section that's already tacked down like in the attached images.

    I email our regional Avery rep and he asked for details that he could forward to their "quality team" (media/lam, print profile, rip, etc.). That was May of 2017 and I haven't heard anything since.

    P.S. Don't judge me by the pixelation on this job, customer insisted on using his image on their 34' RV..


    IMG_20170414_132447.jpg
    IMG_20170414_132513.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  9. AKwrapguy

    AKwrapguy Active Member

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    Slightly judging............ but not really. We all run into customers like this. Sometimes it is what it is.
     
  10. ewded

    ewded Member

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    I leave it plugged in, it wastes 12cc of ink in 48h (2000cc yearly) for cleaning and I never have to do head cleaning.
     
  11. CanuckSigns

    CanuckSigns Very Active Member

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    Isn't HP's biggest selling feature that prints can be laminated and applied immediately after printing? So now they are claiming you need to wait around the same time as an eco-sol machine...interesting...
     
  12. dypinc

    dypinc Very Active Member

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    Thanks for posting that. Now I know not to try Avery.
     
  13. GaSouthpaw

    GaSouthpaw Active Member

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    Holy crap! That almost looks like you'd be able to reuse the vinyl after you peeled the print off!
     
  14. XtremeXccessories

    XtremeXccessories Member

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    lol, I hear ya. It looked just fine when you stood back far enough to see the entire image (15-20 ft), but up close....oof.

    Pretty much, yeah. Didn't stretch in the least, just peeled away...
     
  15. DrunknMonk

    DrunknMonk Member

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    UPDATE FROM HP

    just had this emailed to me, regarding the de lamination on latex printers.

    As you know I have been working with this since last year,


    So I will give you an full over view of the situation.

    • This is not a worldwide issue, in the world approximately 30 cases were logged and escalated to HP, 6 of which were in the UK.

    • All of these cases where in colder region countries Like Canada, the UK, the Nordic Regions and some places in Europe.

    • Of all of these cases, none have seen a failure on the vehicle, they have all been either in the application where people tried to reposition the laminated print with over laps, or in removal where the Laminate came off the vehicle easier than the SAV.


    Influencing Factors.

    The Ink

    • With the introduction of Gen 3 inks, these included a new component which improved the anti-scratch performance of the ink reducing the necessity to laminate in most cases.

    • But it also made the necessity for a different process when Laminating, as has already been discussed in depth

    The SAV

    • The SAV does not have a significant effect, however it needs to be matched with the correct laminate.

    The Laminate

    • We know the Adhesive on the laminate is the most important factor, different manufacturers achieve different results, for instance the Oracal and Vion perform the best from out testing, and Mactac not as good.

    • We know the mounting process of the laminate to the SAV is also critical, all of the customers we visited where laminating too fast causing micro bubbles which added to the reduction in adhesion, combined with not dry ink, and the new anti scratch, equals lower adhesion in the beginning.


    HP had to achieve a certain adhesion point for 3Mand Avery to give the MCS and ICS warranty (respectively).

    We know that if the customer uses Avery or 3Mwith their matched component Laminate on a Latex printer they still carry the Warranty from those media and laminate manufacturers as long as they follow the instructions.


    Now to address some of the comments in your mail,

    Even though they may be down loading the profile and pre-sets from the HP Website, those are generic profiles to achieve good colour at a reasonable speed.

    For the lamination challenge we have suggested that the customer get profiles made with reduced inks, (improved adhesion and better ink savings)
     
  16. EmAEx

    EmAEx New Member

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    We have 2 HP360's and have never come across this issue...we're in the states, but when the laminating doesn't go well and I try to remove it to potentially try again, the lam takes a layer of the ink with it... We bought these 2 in 2013 or 2014 (one of the two years) but have never had this problem... I know this isn't any help for your problem, but wanted to touch base as a HP360 user...Though if it helps, I pretty much only use 3M, Briteline, and General Formulation for vinyls as well as lams.
     
  17. ikarasu

    ikarasu Active Member

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    I have a 110 and just noticed it. It;s only on reflective, 680 for me - Everything I've printed has been fine... then I got some police cars to do... printed them, brought them into work to laminate them, put them through the cutter...and I noticed it peels off really easy. I'm hoping it doesn't fall off and fail on the vehicle - It seems to stick ok, but it comes off 10x easier than not.

    I was planning on lowering the ink... see if that helps.. But we've done 4+ vehicles with it how it is so far, so I'm hoping we don't get a call back in a few months that the laminate is peeling.
     
  18. AF

    AF Active Member

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    If you spray the printed vinyl does it fisheye? Curious if the ink has a surfacing agent or silicone type additive.
     
  19. dale911

    dale911 President

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    As far as the pixelation, I found a way to blow up a lot of small images to sizes like the event requires with minimal pixelation. I was able to blow up a photo that was natively about 5x7 at 300dpi to 29’wx9’tall. (Obviously we cropped the top and bottoms quite a bit)

    It was not pixelated but if you looked closely, it was a little softer than perfect but looked fantastic. It’s done in photoshop without a plugin and requires no tuning more than a calculator and about 20 minutes.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. player

    player Major Contributor

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    Will you share your technique please?
     
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