HP360 Lamination Problems

[colin smyth]

The new gen 3 inks for the HP latex have a 'scratch resistance' feature to them. If they are not cured properly than the bond between the laminate and ink will fail. Ways to help with this depending on your setup, you might want to look at increasing your number of passes so that there is more dwell time in the heater, maybe look at reducing the ink density as well, and of course you can look at increasing your heat a little as well as long as it's not causing the material to buckle.

You can also try and using a little heat when laminating as well if you have a heated laminator.

Hi AK, thanks for the reply, tried all above, even had HP tech tweak profiles to get optimum levels for the vinyl and still no luck. Also tried 16 pass as well as normal 10pass. When laminating, have top roller set to 40 Celsius, still no luck

 

[dypinc]

Lot of people have told me that but I was under the impression that the optimiser goes down first, helping the ink to cure at a lower temperature, so surely it won’t affect the laminate, is that not the case? Perhaps I should try a print with optimiser set very low and see what happens? Profile had it set at 120 but HP tech reset it to 100 but still no luck, maybe need to knock it back to 60-80.

For SAV vinyl the Optimizer setting in your Media Preset should be set around 12. Never seen a need to go above 18. Are you serious it was set that high?

 

[colin smyth]

For SAV vinyl the Optimizer setting in your Media Preset should be set around 12. Never seen a need to go above 18. Are you serious it was set that high?

Hi, sorry, was late when I was typing that last night, that was the ink limit I had quoted, not optimiser level, my bad! Will check that when I get to the workshop and see what it is set at, hopefully it is something as simple as that but would have thought HP Tech would have checked all that out during tests but you never know!

 

[colin smyth]

For SAV vinyl the Optimizer setting in your Media Preset should be set around 12. Never seen a need to go above 18. Are you serious it was set that high?

Optimiser was set to 16! Will try running it at 12 and see how that goes, thanks.

 

[colin smyth]

Optimiser was set to 16! Will try running it at 12 and see how that goes, thanks.

Ok, so tried optimiser at 12 and no difference, lam peels away cleanly from any printed area. I'm going to leave it overnight and try again tomorrow.
To be honest though, I think the problem is the ink itself, has anyone out there tried 3rd party inks? Have been given a set by the company that supplies 3rd party ink for our L25500 (no issues in the last year) and am seriously considering trying them to see if there is any difference.

 

[flyplainsdrifta]

hp may not touch the printer after you put 3rd party inks in!!!!!!!!!

 

[colin smyth]

hp may not touch the printer after you put 3rd party inks in!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I know that but after a year of chasing them for help, I’m not getting any further anyway, so at this stage I’m willing to try anything, printer is pretty much useless anyway as I can’t print and long term graphics and be confident they will last.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

There is something not right about your situation... We have only ever had this issue with 1 product and that was 3M 8508. We have seen similar issues where ink wasn't fully cured due to low heat settings or low air flow. For our profiles we typically run lower densities like 80% for most of our wraps and SAV products.

 

[Bly]

We typically run 100-110% on most media and have never had laminate lifting off the print.

 

[AKwrapguy]

Hi AK, thanks for the reply, tried all above, even had HP tech tweak profiles to get optimum levels for the vinyl and still no luck. Also tried 16 pass as well as normal 10pass. When laminating, have top roller set to 40 Celsius, still no luck

So on your wrap film what is your ink density, number of passes, heater settings?

 

[colin smyth]

There is something not right about your situation... We have only ever had this issue with 1 product and that was 3M 8508. We have seen similar issues where ink wasn't fully cured due to low heat settings or low air flow. For our profiles we typically run lower densities like 80% for most of our wraps and SAV products.

Something is definitely not right and I am convinced it is down the ink, there is nothing else it can be. I know when ink isn't cured, that's pretty obvious to anyone that has owned an HP Latex printer, so if ink is cured, it won't matter what density, passes or any other sittings are at, if the ink is cured, the laminate should stick, conclusion, surely the ink is at fault? I think by making the ink more scratch resistant, HP have shifted the properties needed to make an adhesive (i.e Laminate) stick to it?

 

[colin smyth]

So on your wrap film what is your ink density, number of passes, heater settings?

Hi AK, ink density at 100, 12 passes and heater at 115 celsius. As I mentioned in my previous post, surely if the ink is cured, these settings are irrelevant, cured ink should mean laminate will bond to it?

 

[colin smyth]

We typically run 100-110% on most media and have never had laminate lifting off the print.

Hi Bly, we run the same, 100-110 density, heating at 115-120 celsius and on every occasion, laminate can be removed cleanly.

 

[colin smyth]

I really appreciate everyone's time and input here and I am very happy that not everyone is having this problem, though I know there are some out there that are. For those that have no issues, can I ask you all just to do a check on any jobs you have printed and laminated in the last few days?
The key it to pick a print that has no vinyl surface showing and is covered with ink, dopest matter what coverage or density, as long as there is ink. Take a scalpel and lightly cut through the laminate, then try and peel it away, so how easy it comes off?
If any of you also have a 1st or 2nd Gen Latex or solvent/ecosolvent, try to do the same thing and see what the difference is?

As I said, hopefully this isn't a problem for you and you have no issues but i know some will have problems.

Thanks for you time

 

[colin smyth]

For anyone that wants to see the issue, here is a link to the video I took this morning of the issue. This was printed and laminated yesterday morning (10 pass, 100 ink limit, 12% optimiser, heater 115 celsius). Laminated using Neschen laminator, 40 celsius heat on top roller.

Dropbox - Hp Delamination Compressed.mov

This isn't normal for any printer, and definitely wouldn't be possible on 1st or 2nd Gen Latex (I still have my L25500) or eco solvent printer.

Thoughts or comments welcome as always

 

[mpn]

I appear to be having this issue also. I will check some settings and post up results.

 

[mpn]

Had to post again to up my post count, devil be gone...lol

 

[colin smyth]

I appear to be having this issue also. I will check some settings and post up results.

Hi MPN, thanks for the input and i'm sorry to hear you are having the same issues though to be honest, i'm not surprised. I think a lot of people will find, if the start looking into it, there will be a problem, perhaps it just hasn't been as noticeable or they have put it down to something else rather than the printer at the time.

We have had a few customers coming back to us with delamination problems on past jobs and we have replaced them and they have went home happy. However, it is the customers that don't come back and just assume you do poor work with sub-standard materials, that is much harder to fix.

 

[jfiscus]

Thank you for sharing the video.
We had a latex 360 here and got rid of it, we couldn't trust it for our primary business (wraps) and ended up going to Epson printers.

 

[colin smyth]

Thank you for sharing the video.
We had a latex 360 here and got rid of it, we couldn't trust it for our primary business (wraps) and ended up going to Epson printers.

Hi, thanks for the input, did you get rid of it because of delamination or other problems? What do you think of the Epson?