HP360 Lamination Problems

[colin smyth]

Holy crap! That almost looks like you'd be able to reuse the vinyl after you peeled the print off!

That is exactly what has happened to us before GaSouthpaw, have had instances where prints have been laminated gloss rather than matt (and vice verse) and as long as there is no large ares of unprinted media, we can pull old laminate easily and re-laminated.........suppose that is one plus point from all of this

 

[klingsdesigns]

Is this still an issue with the latex printers?

 

[colin smyth]

Definitely still and issue with the 360 and I’m still having problems. No longer use the printer for vinyls or anything to that need lamination. HP have been useless and downplayed the problem saying I’m the only person affected and they are nowcompletely ignoring any emails from me .

 

[klingsdesigns]

Anyone having this problem on the 365. I got electrical installed Friday for it and was going to order tomorrow.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

It's not an issue if you know what to do to avoid it. The problem lies in the scratch resistant coating additive. Higher passes and low heat are not a good combo, we have spent a lot of time profiling for 6 and 8 pass on wraps and some times 10 pass. Above 10 pass delamination becomes a bigger issue, one way to avoid it is to take the solvent approach and wait 24hrs before laminating to allow the ink to fully evaporate.

 

[klingsdesigns]

It's not an issue if you know what to do to avoid it. The problem lies in the scratch resistant coating additive. Higher passes and low heat are not a good combo, we have spent a lot of time profiling for 6 and 8 pass on wraps and some times 10 pass. Above 10 pass delamination becomes a bigger issue, one way to avoid it is to take the solvent approach and wait 24hrs before laminating to allow the ink to fully evaporate.

That’s what I don’t wanna do is wait. I wanted to be able to print. And head right to laminator. Then cut and apply to customers car they drop off that morning.

 

[colin smyth]

We have left prints for up to a week before laminating, just to see if it makes a difference but for us, delamination still occurs.
The 365 uses same 831 inks, so same scratch resistant properties, therefore same lamination issues.
If you need to print and laminate right away, then it’s the only printer you can do it with, however just keep in mind, delam might occur some months down the line. We have had vehicles coming back to us with this issue, that’s why I refuse to use it for vinyl and bought myself an Epson SC-80600.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

That’s what I don’t wanna do is wait. I wanted to be able to print. And head right to laminator. Then cut and apply to customers car they drop off that morning.

You can if you limit your ink and passes in your profiles. Most people who have that issue run the highest densities and the most passes trying to hit some mythical color properties. We have never had a delam issue due to the latex that we haven't fixed. We build our own profiles and presets to prevent this.

 

[klingsdesigns]

You can if you limit your ink and passes in your profiles. Most people who have that issue run the highest densities and the most passes trying to hit some mythical color properties. We have never had a delam issue due to the latex that we haven't fixed. We build our own profiles and presets to prevent this.

Are the colors on the lower passes still pretty vibrant? I have only printed on solvent printers.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Are the colors on the lower passes still pretty vibrant? I have only printed on solvent printers.

Yes, these are all 6 pass, all Avery 1105 + 1060Z

On the Yellow Trailer we only did the upper marquee and the lower banners but not the lower painted body in that image.

 

[colin smyth]

Yes, these are all 6 pass, all Avery 1105 + 1060Z

On the Yellow Trailer we only did the upper marquee and the lower banners but not the lower painted body in that image.

Interesting you say to run at 6 pass, we had an HP technician write a profile for us (Hexis 200 vinyl) and they advised running 10pass. Might be worth giving 6pass a go and see if it makes a difference. Have you ever had laminate problems?

 

[ikarasu]

We've done dozens of wraps. All laminated same day.

overlam. definately doesn't stick as well as with our solvent... It scared us a lot on our first wrap. We did a few police cars...then our installer messed up and was yanking the 680 off, and off came all the overlam. We thought for sure we'd be redoing the whole fleet...

Did some tests...and sure enough we could peel any overlam we applied off if we tried. Had our 3M rep come out... They told us this was normal. That it's within their specs, and still warranty approved... That unless you specifically try, it's not going to delam on its own.

It's been about 2 years since the first wrap... And it looks just as good today, and police cruisers get damaged pretty quick.


I think most people get scared how it's not permanent like they're used to.. But I don't think it is a problem either. For us, it's.mostly reflective we have the issue with... And certain overlam. But again... While.its.scary, it's.mever been a problem. And 3M sent a print to their lab and OK'd it, so while it is scary... We're not too worried about it.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Interesting you say to run at 6 pass, we had an HP technician write a profile for us (Hexis 200 vinyl) and they advised running 10pass. Might be worth giving 6pass a go and see if it makes a difference. Have you ever had laminate problems?

HP doesn't recommend or support anything below 8pass for SAV, but we have a great profile/preset for 6pass which is our go to. We had delam issues once on 3M 180Cv3 and 8518 at 10pass (Specific Red required that we couldn't get to their satisfaction below that) but since then we have not had any issues.

 

[Herrington25]

HP doesn't recommend or support anything below 8pass for SAV, but we have a great profile/preset for 6pass which is our go to. We had delam issues once on 3M 180Cv3 and 8518 at 10pass (Specific Red required that we couldn't get to their satisfaction below that) but since then we have not had any issues.

Would you be willing to share your profile? Really struggling with laminate adhesion issues on my HP 110.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Would you be willing to share your profile? Really struggling with laminate adhesion issues on my HP 110.

Our Profiles are now built on our 570s. I don't know if it works for the 110 but I can email it to anyone who PMs me their email address.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

UPDATE FROM HP

just had this emailed to me, regarding the de lamination on latex printers.

As you know I have been working with this since last year,


So I will give you an full over view of the situation.

• This is not a worldwide issue, in the world approximately 30 cases were logged and escalated to HP, 6 of which were in the UK.

• All of these cases where in colder region countries Like Canada, the UK, the Nordic Regions and some places in Europe.

• Of all of these cases, none have seen a failure on the vehicle, they have all been either in the application where people tried to reposition the laminated print with over laps, or in removal where the Laminate came off the vehicle easier than the SAV.


Influencing Factors.

The Ink

• With the introduction of Gen 3 inks, these included a new component which improved the anti-scratch performance of the ink reducing the necessity to laminate in most cases.

• But it also made the necessity for a different process when Laminating, as has already been discussed in depth

The SAV

• The SAV does not have a significant effect, however it needs to be matched with the correct laminate.

The Laminate

• We know the Adhesive on the laminate is the most important factor, different manufacturers achieve different results, for instance the Oracal and Vion perform the best from out testing, and Mactac not as good.

• We know the mounting process of the laminate to the SAV is also critical, all of the customers we visited where laminating too fast causing micro bubbles which added to the reduction in adhesion, combined with not dry ink, and the new anti scratch, equals lower adhesion in the beginning.


HP had to achieve a certain adhesion point for 3Mand Avery to give the MCS and ICS warranty (respectively).

We know that if the customer uses Avery or 3Mwith their matched component Laminate on a Latex printer they still carry the Warranty from those media and laminate manufacturers as long as they follow the instructions.


Now to address some of the comments in your mail,

Even though they may be down loading the profile and pre-sets from the HP Website, those are generic profiles to achieve good colour at a reasonable speed.

For the lamination challenge we have suggested that the customer get profiles made with reduced inks, (improved adhesion and better ink savings)

Soo... basically, it's HP's Ink but they want to add as many other variables as possible so as to look like it's a combination of OTHER products or practices that cause the failures. Nice.
I will say their claims about how many issues were reported may not be "up to date". We've had this problem for years with our HP L560 (was worse with Avery but still happens on 3M sometimes.)
We switched to ONLY 3M because of it and now I'm back in the forums reading to see if the problem has been resolved because it's next to impossible to get 3M right now (shortage).
I may go with Orajet since the findings said it performed best.

I'm the one who started the other thread on this topic in Nov 2017 . . . .here's the link https://www.signs101.com/threads/lam-separated-from-vinyl-again.143997/

 

[SanQ]

What a BS from HP, problem is well known, we had a lot of guarantee issues with this but solved it ourselves because HP was not at home.... at this moment we only laminate prints from our Roland VG2 and this one will be soon replaced for an Epson SureColor SC-S80600, both our HP 330's are only used for printing on short time material for events or prints that don't need a laminate.....