Need Help Laminate Turning Brown

[McDonald Signs]

Has anyone else had problems with laminate turning brown after 3 to 4yrs on digital prints?
Printing with Roland SC540 on Orajet 3651 with 210G laminate...
But I have noticed it on other brands of vinyl & laminate too.
I'm allowing 24hrs for digital prints to gas out before laminating.
I know it's the sun turning the laminate brown because the side of the signs I'm putting the prints on that gets more sun turns brown faster and sometimes the other side of the sign will look fine.
Once the laminate starts turning brown it deteriorates pretty fast...
Attached is a photo of one of the signs

 

[Billct2]

Don't use that, but isn't it a 4 year material?

 

[McDonald Signs]

Yes, I recently started using 215G laminate that is supposed to add another year or so to the life of the prints outdoors

 

[GaSouthpaw]

Summer in the south is brutal on digital prints- particularly the ones that get direct sun or aren't completely vertical. And, according to Oracal's website, 4 years is the life of 210 laminate. Also, 3651 is a medium-term media, good for a service life of only five years unprinted.
I'd suggest going with one Oracal's cast wrap films and laminates if you want longer-lived prints (and want to stay with Oracal).

 

[2B]

We were having the same issue with 210G lamination last year, spoke with Tim Wright Product Support Specialist with ORAFOL AMERICAS
Here is what was their reply was

Good afternoon,


Thank you for the photos and your printing information. I have seen this before; we call it solvent migration. It comes from the solvents in the ink not entirely evaporating before laminating. We believe by using the Roland profile more ink is applied during the printing processes with this more solvent is present than can dissipate in 24 hours. Over time around twelve to eighteen months the active solvents swim out into the light or unprinted areas of the graphic and get burned.


I recommend downloading the profiles from our website the match you print setup and the specific material you are printing. Using these custom-designed profiles applies less solvent to the material. With fewer solvents, present 24 hours of outgassing will be more appropriate. Unless the areas are dark, heavy saturated colors like black, red, or blue these, colors can have excess solvent and will need to outgas longer. They way you outgas can have an effect on the evaporation processes as well. If you are leaving the prints on the take-up roll, they need to be unwound enough to allow air to get between the layers of material. The same would hold true if you are stacking the prints. The solvents have to be able to evaporate. I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to contact me anytime you have any questions.




Kind Regards,




Tim Wright
Product Support Specialist

because of this we are using 3M 8048G and have been seeing better results

edit typo

 

[klingsdesigns]

We were having the same issue with 210G lamination last year, spoke with Tim Wright Product Support Specialist with ORAFOL AMERICAS
Here is what was their reply was

Good afternoon,


Thank you for the photos and your printing information. I have seen this before; we call it solvent migration. It comes from the solvents in the ink not entirely evaporating before laminating. We believe by using the Roland profile more ink is applied during the printing processes with this more solvent is present than can dissipate in 24 hours. Over time around twelve to eighteen months the active solvents swim out into the light or unprinted areas of the graphic and get burned.


I recommend downloading the profiles from our website the match you print setup and the specific material you are printing. Using these custom-designed profiles applies less solvent to the material. With fewer solvents, present 24 hours of outgassing will be more appropriate. Unless the areas are dark, heavy saturated colors like black, red, or blue these, colors can have excess solvent and will need to outgas longer. They way you outgas can have an effect on the evaporation processes as well. If you are leaving the prints on the take-up roll, they need to be unwound enough to allow air to get between the layers of material. The same would hold true if you are stacking the prints. The solvents have to be able to evaporate. I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to contact me anytime you have any questions.




Kind Regards,




Tim Wright
Product Support Specialist

because of this we are using 3M 4048G and have been seeing better results

Do you mean 8408? and are you using this just on calendared vinyl then?

 

[2B]

yes all cast prints get matching cast lamination

sorry, typed the wrong numbers
3M™ Envision™ Gloss Overlaminate 8048G

 

[jfiscus]

I have seen this exact failure multiple times on this website with Oracal 210 laminate. I'm sure a search will turn up the other threads. The laminate always appears "burned".
I don't use Oracal, so I can't help you beyond that.

 

[equippaint]

An unlaminated print will last 3+ years so what are you gaining using 210 or any other cheapy lam? Saying its solvent migration is a cop out too. I see a lot of these browned out signs around town here but not every job needs cast either.

 

[bob]

I had this problem in the past with all manner of laminates. The Oracal guy may be right, I doubt it but who knows, I don't care if it's caused by ink migration or evil leprechauns, there's no way to avoid laminate brownout that I've ever discovered. Other than not use vinyl laminate. But if it is ink migration how come it occurs in places where there's no ink?

Now days I only laminate if the client absolutely positively demands it and I can't talk them out of it or the print is going to be applied somewhere that's exposed to obscene levels of abrasion. In practice that means that I laminate something about once every couple of years.

I switched over to liquid laminate, which is just liquid acrylic, and have experienced zero UV problems with prints exposed to the elements for many years, long beyond when vinyl laminate starts looking like crap. The coated prints look just as good as the day they were applied. I do have a clear coated print on the front of my horse trailer that's finally starting to deteriorate after ~14 years out in the elements. Most of the time parked and facing south. I never had any complaints due to abrasion either. The liquid laminate is tough but not as tough as 2 mils of vinyl. Nonetheless, it's been working for me.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I like to walk into those businesses and say "Oh ya that sign guy used crap! Scammed you right outa your seat. See our stuff, we use REAL 3M matieral with UV protection laminate, not some cheap chinese knock-off stuff you can buy at the dollar store. Go with us and it will be MUCH better!" **cough 1 year warranty**cough cough.

 

[shoresigns]

Why is the browning inside the black outline but not outside of it?

 

[bannertime]

It is a 4 year lam with lots of direct sunlight. I'd say it did what it was meant to do for the amount of time it was prescribed to do it in. This is a good example of a sign that could have been done in cut vinyl. There's a few signs around here that are literally just white with bold solid color text that have become unreadable due to laminate failure. Just doesn't make sense. I've seen it with vehicle "wraps." Guy wanted some blue lettering and some jack wagon tried to wrap his van with printed blue letters on white vinyl. When you sell a printed sign with a lifespan estimate; you have to use the lowest lifespan product as the guideline for longevity. Then you have to adjust for environmental exposure.

 

[rockz12]

Looks like your vinyl is cooking. What is graphic mounted to? Aluminum? If this is constant issue maybe it is time to look at entry level UV printer. No more nightmare on elm street. Other signs in the area look ok for same amount of exposure to sun?

 

[jfiscus]

See prior threads below with same issue.
What vinyl is this?
laminate failure photos?

 

[gnemmas]

That Oracal guy's response is horsesh.t. There are vast Unprinted area turned brown. It has nothing to do with how you print. It is the Oragurad 210 laminate, it's adhesive or film turned brown after 4 years. Which is it's useful life anyway.

He should just say it's 210 laminate film Will turn brown after 4 years, use Oraguard 290 if you want to last longer.

 

[thesignpost]

We were having the same issue with 210G lamination last year, spoke with Tim Wright Product Support Specialist with ORAFOL AMERICAS
Here is what was their reply was

Good afternoon,


Thank you for the photos and your printing information. I have seen this before; we call it solvent migration. It comes from the solvents in the ink not entirely evaporating before laminating. We believe by using the Roland profile more ink is applied during the printing processes with this more solvent is present than can dissipate in 24 hours. Over time around twelve to eighteen months the active solvents swim out into the light or unprinted areas of the graphic and get burned.


I recommend downloading the profiles from our website the match you print setup and the specific material you are printing. Using these custom-designed profiles applies less solvent to the material. With fewer solvents, present 24 hours of outgassing will be more appropriate. Unless the areas are dark, heavy saturated colors like black, red, or blue these, colors can have excess solvent and will need to outgas longer. They way you outgas can have an effect on the evaporation processes as well. If you are leaving the prints on the take-up roll, they need to be unwound enough to allow air to get between the layers of material. The same would hold true if you are stacking the prints. The solvents have to be able to evaporate. I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to contact me anytime you have any questions.




Kind Regards,




Tim Wright
Product Support Specialist

because of this we are using 3M 8048G and have been seeing better results

edit typo

I agree, if there was outgassing, you would see bubbling as well. The response is BS.

 

[papabud]

i have seen this problem many times. not really sure what the real answer is.
my personal thoughts is its the break down of the laminate adhesive and then the uv rays cooking that layer.
i had to replace one sign because of this very reason and that was from a 3m material. off a solvant printer.
since switching to my latex i haven't had this problem yet. keyword being yet.

 

[TimToad]

With our extreme heat and increased UV, I'm convinced this effect is the adhesive in the laminate baking. I've seen it regardless of brand and usually is worse on cheaper brands, but we've seen it on wraps an

 

[equippaint]

With our extreme heat and increased UV, I'm convinced this effect is the adhesive in the laminate baking. I've seen it regardless of brand and usually is worse on cheaper brands, but we've seen it on wraps an

On your stuff that you know the material or wraps in general? I'm sure plenty of people have used 210 or equally cheap lam on wraps. Plenty of chinese monomeric material out there too.