Locate Utilities

[Blaney]

Tuesday morning I had a repeat customer come in the shop. He wanted a 4 x 8 MDO basic sign ASAP. I told him I could have it done the next day, but if he wanted me to install it, it would be Friday before I could do it. I explained I had to have the utilities located first. Shop policy states nothing goes in the ground without locating the utilities first. He told me to cancel the order and that he would find another shop that didn’t have a “stupid policy”.
I went by the site yesterday afternoon and sure enough, a sign was up. The sign was made by a guy who makes signs part time and under cuts everyone.
How many of you will put a sign post in the ground without having the utilities located first? Do you locate only if you dig? Do you locate if you pound a channel post in the ground? I’m wondering how dumb of a policy it is. I think it’s better to be safe than sorry.

 

[TheSnowman]

I'm thinkin' the first day you hit a fiber optic line...you'll be thinking it wasn't such a dumb policy. You could lose your whole shop REAL quick if that went down. If you call to have utilities located first, you aren't taking the risk...they company that marks them is taking the risk.

 

[ddarlak]

i've dug way too many holes without calling , but as i get older, i won't anymore, just not worth it...

i dug up some sort of communication line years ago(more like decades), nothing came of it, but it's simply not worth the hassle.....

 

[Pat Whatley]

For us it depends on the property. Most of our installs are commercial real estate. For empty lots out in the sticks we don't bother calling. For just about everything else I call it in. We've got a "one call" system where we call one number, they call all the utility companies, and the utilities get marked within 48 hours. We do occassionally make exceptions, though. A lot of sections of town everything but gas and water is above ground. You can pretty accurately tell where the underground lines are and we rarely dig deep enough to reach them anyway. It's a risk but a calculated one.

Darlak is right. You clip a fiber optic cable you're not only going to be responsible for the astronomical repair cost you also have to pay the communications company for "lost potential revenue" for the entire time it's down.

 

[300mphGraphics]

I'd change your wording from "shop policy". People hate policies and if you only tell them it is your shop policy, they could balk.

http://www.mo1call.com/ - looks like you can't even plant flowers in your garden without calling in Missouri, if that is the Springfield you hail from.

 

[Gino]

We call PA-Dig first for most installations.... especially if we're unfamiliar with the area.

Like ddarlak and your cheap competitor, in the past we've on occasion done it without calling, but we don't anymore unless we get permits to do it and I know for a fact that there's nothing in the ground.


You're right, it is much better to be safe than sorry. Eventually, the odds catch up to you.

 

[ncpdfsb]

you should have a contract stating the customers responsibility for damage while installing structure for signage. my feeling is everybody who walks onto somebody's property be it residential or commercial and performing any service best have a contract stating customer responsibility while work is performed. 2 years ago we dug to cement metal posts, all was well and looked great. following morning we get a call and customers complaining the sign is crooked. crew goes out to investigate and we find graffiti (sharpie marker) and posts have been physically pushed over. never mind doing the job over to keep the peace but took twice as long to remove everything without damage (damn quick set cement!) we now include a vandalism clause plus non responsibility for property damage in most of our contracts.

 

[earplug]

Go to Call811.com and get state specific info to show that it is a "requirement" not a "shop policy".

We also include a disclaimer regarding irrigation/sprinkler systems since those are not included in the locate.

Jack

 

[Gino]

you should have a contract stating the customers responsibility for damage while installing structure for signage. my feeling is everybody who walks onto somebody's property be it residential or commercial and performing any service best have a contract stating customer responsibility while work is performed. 2 years ago we dug to cement metal posts, all was well and looked great. following morning we get a call and customers complaining the sign is crooked. crew goes out to investigate and we find graffiti (sharpie marker) and posts have been physically pushed over. never mind doing the job over to keep the peace but took twice as long to remove everything without damage (damn quick set cement!) we now include a vandalism clause plus non responsibility for property damage in most of our contracts.

You're in Long Island.... need I say more ??


Really, had you put up reinforcements to keep the poles straight and solid during curing time, no one would probably had messed with it or been able to knock it out of square. Graffiti, that's on the environment.... goes with the territory.

Nope, can't pass the blame of these conditions onto the customer. That's an insurance deal, clearly.

 

[MikePro]

Hotlines are free... inform your client it takes a week to get one marked and there should never be an issue.

o, and i dig without them all the time... by hand. I'll never use an auger to dig the holes without a hotline. I've also invented an MDO post/panel setup that requires no holes... just extra lumber to make it self-standing and a pair of 3' steel rebar to pound through the legs and stake the sign into the ground.

 

[Colin]

I've also invented an MDO post/panel setup that requires no holes... just extra lumber to make it self-standing and a pair of 3' steel rebar to pound through the legs and stake the sign into the ground.

Any chance of a quick sketch to display exactly how you do this?

 

[Gino]

I would imagine he's talking about a sled sign. Upside down 'T's and then a spike driven down the outside runners to prevent blowing over.

 

[MikePro]

sure! i actually posted a drawing somewhere in an old thread (i'll add to this thread when i can find it) but here's pix to give you an idea:


i devised these so that I can install myself, without any extra hands. My first one held up for an entire year before I had to remove it... I still have 2 more I've installed recently that just weathered the HUGE storm that just hit our area:
The T-frame at the base is held together by a thru-bolt, which is kept loose until i hammer 2- 4' Rebar through each leg (front/back) at a slight angle. I then raise each vertical post to level and tighten the bolt, and secure with 2x4's so that each leg is able to stand up on its own. Temporarily screw a 6" block of 2x4, level with each other, to each post to utilize as a "ledge" to help hold your MDO level/square while securing with screws to the posts. Remove blocks, and give the Rebar a few more knocks to make sure the sign is firmly in place.

 

[Jillbeans]

Back when I was married my hubby used to install signs (this was in the 90s) the fee to PA One call was $50 a year, well worth it.
He was a dumb schmuck but he never dug without us calling PA One call first.
I think it's just plain foolish to dig without such a service first, and if the customer balked at what to me seems like a very reasonable company policy, the heck with him.
He would be singing a different tune if the part timer dug up something expensive.
Love.....jill

 

[Colin]

Thanks. I take it the T-Frame is made with 4x4 posts?

Approx what angle are the spikes at?

 

[Colin]

I think it's just plain foolish to dig without such a service first, and if the customer balked at what to me seems like a very reasonable company policy, the heck with him.
He would be singing a different tune if the part timer dug up something expensive.

Agreed, but it still stings to lose a customer over that.

 

[MikePro]

aye, 4x4's.
the angle is arbitrary, you can go straight down if you like but I figured that at slight in/outward angles it would help take any potential "wiggle" out of the finished product.

 

[Colin]

Another idea would be top weld a big flat washer onto the end of the re-bar spike; that way the sign could never come up, and would allow for putting the spikes in straight.

 

[Gino]

Here's one we did and I still have a picture of it.

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This frame was made in-house and then the sign was installed on site along with the cross runners and then we spiked it. This is using 6" x 6" for the base and the rest is 4" x 4" and 2" x 4" lagged together. This has been up for over three years now. Because of the height, we had to go a little beefier down below. Normally, we use 4" x 4" for almost everything.

This is a very good way to install this stuff, if you're on macadam, cement or any non-digging surface.

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Been using these for over 35 years and never had one to date blow over.

 

[weaselboogie]

Darlak is right. You clip a fiber optic cable you're not only going to be responsible for the astronomical repair cost you also have to pay the communications company for "lost potential revenue" for the entire time it's down.

Follow up your "stupid policy" with why you shouldn't dig without calling. Buried lines could cost you your business or your life. I haven't done too many ground installs, but I call on everyone. The last thing that I need is to hit power or a gasline. My neighbor lost a son about 10 years ago because the son misjudged and plowed over a gasline on their farm tractor. They're nothing to mess with.

Doesn't sound like a stupid policy to me.