Major Failure of IJ 35-20

[Charlie J]

The reason it failed and you even said it was because the 8509 "laminate" isn't even laminate it's clear pvc vinyl. So i wasn't in the wrong by using the suggested laminate with it.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the difference between clear vinyl and laminate??

 

[cdiesel]

Whatever you decide to use, please complete a wall adhesion test prior to reprinting and installing.

 

[WYLDGFI]

Yeah chris....I hope they have time to do it now. Think we'll have to reprint on the fly and my client is going to have to install end of week. IM thinking of the Flexcon or avery material at this point. Maybe bite the bullet and go with controltak just to be sure. Need to talk to my flexcon rep on Monday.

 

[cdiesel]

Bill, my point is that the substrate is unsuitable. No reason why you, the supplier, vinyl mfg, or installer should be liable. It is the installer's responsibility to test the wall for proper prep & adhesion before installing. Check that, before ordering!

 

[smdgrfx]

I have been using the 3M IJ8624 vinyl for textured surface on drywall and it works great. You have to post heat, but no failures. Pricey, but it works great. I have also been wanting to try the Arlon DPF 8000. The adhesive is more aggressive, but that's what it takes to stick I guess.

 

[WYLDGFI]

I understand that Chris...and thanks for the heads up on doing the adhesion test. But as of right now, I think I need to go with the best solution we can come up with at the moment to fix the issue. They had to take down the graphics in Chicago yesterday because they looked horrible and could not be repaired to a point of decency. The wall is ripped apart now. Arlon DPF 8000 may be a good one to try...will have to see if my client is interested in that.

 

[boxerbay]

what Chris is saying is if the wall is drywall with some junk base coat sprayed on it, it will have a slightly textured matte finish that is difficult to adhere to. The wall should be painted with a semigloss prior to placing new graphics on it. this way the vinyl has a smooth surface to adhere to.

5.1 Paint Surface Definitions
• Flat paints provide a non-reflective surface and they have a porous texture that can hold onto dirt and
make cleaning more difficult. The porous surface of flat paint makes application of Adhesive films
much more difficult due the inability to adhere to the surface. This causes the adhesion of the film to
the painted surface to be greatly reduced causing premature failure of the graphic. This paint finish
is NOT recommended.

 

[strypguy]

We too have had good success with Avery 2611 wall vinyl

John

 

[ProWraps]

arlon 8000?!?!?! yikes. you can guarantee a complete redrywall of the wall when that needs to be removed.

180c or 180 would have served your cause much better than the 35.

 

[WYLDGFI]

Questions and answers from/to 3m Rep:

A couple of questions:1) What type of wall was the graphic applied to
2) Was it painted , what type of paint used and how long was it allowed to dry
3) IJ 35 has a permanent adhesive.......With permanent adhesive, this shouldn't happen
4) IJ35 is almost 4mil in thickness. If there is a lot of ink on this , it could be a problem because of weight
5) When dealing with airport terminals ( Walls , pole wraps ), especially JET BLUE, we do not recommend IJ 35 as the product of choice.

Applied to painted drywall.
Not sure of brand or finish of paint.....dry time 2+ months.
IJ 35-20 NOT COMPLY......Lot #G11071
Date 031411
NZ 12519
ID #7534718630-8

I do love how he said ESPECIALLY Jet Blue.....I guess he would say Especially United or American Airlines or Southwest too?? lol

 

[WYLDGFI]

what Chris is saying is if the wall is drywall with some junk base coat sprayed on it, it will have a slightly textured matte finish that is difficult to adhere to. The wall should be painted with a semigloss prior to placing new graphics on it. this way the vinyl has a smooth surface to adhere to.

5.1 Paint Surface Definitions
• Flat paints provide a non-reflective surface and they have a porous texture that can hold onto dirt and
make cleaning more difficult. The porous surface of flat paint makes application of Adhesive films
much more difficult due the inability to adhere to the surface. This causes the adhesion of the film to
the painted surface to be greatly reduced causing premature failure of the graphic. This paint finish
is NOT recommended.

To answer that...I honestly dont know what the paint surface was. Yes...it was up to my client to determine that. Still not sure what to go with here...

 

[synergy_jim]

I have had IJ35 and oracal 3651 fail adhesion tests on painted drywall. If the paint is at least semi gloss, its usually is fine. Any duller than that and you are asking for failure...

 

[Anicom]

ij180c is the only thing we use in airports for large wall coverings. We also send spec sheets to our client, the GC's and our installers on what finish we need the walls to be otherwise we can't be held financially responsible for a failure. Only ever had one failure in 100's of applications and that was due to a sloppy GC lying about when the paint when on...luckily they made good on it as our installers take lots of notes and lots of photos. We don't mind the overkill on the media because a job that goes bad in an airport can be huge bucks to redo especially if the installers are union and the work needs to be done at night.

 

[HulkSmash]

Questions and answers from/to 3m Rep:

A couple of questions:1) What type of wall was the graphic applied to
2) Was it painted , what type of paint used and how long was it allowed to dry
3) IJ 35 has a permanent adhesive.......With permanent adhesive, this shouldn't happen
4) IJ35 is almost 4mil in thickness. If there is a lot of ink on this , it could be a problem because of weight
5) When dealing with airport terminals ( Walls , pole wraps ), especially JET BLUE, we do not recommend IJ 35 as the product of choice.

Applied to painted drywall.
Not sure of brand or finish of paint.....dry time 2+ months.
IJ 35-20 NOT COMPLY......Lot #G11071
Date 031411
NZ 12519
ID #7534718630-8

I do love how he said ESPECIALLY Jet Blue.....I guess he would say Especially United or American Airlines or Southwest too?? lol

No matter what you say, do, or facts your present - 3M will find a way to make it your fault. They always do. You won't get nothing from them, except for I'm sorry for your situation.

 

[HulkSmash]

Questions and answers from/to 3m Rep:

A couple of questions:1) What type of wall was the graphic applied to
2) Was it painted , what type of paint used and how long was it allowed to dry
3) IJ 35 has a permanent adhesive.......With permanent adhesive, this shouldn't happen
4) IJ35 is almost 4mil in thickness. If there is a lot of ink on this , it could be a problem because of weight
5) When dealing with airport terminals ( Walls , pole wraps ), especially JET BLUE, we do not recommend IJ 35 as the product of choice.

Applied to painted drywall.
Not sure of brand or finish of paint.....dry time 2+ months.
IJ 35-20 NOT COMPLY......Lot #G11071
Date 031411
NZ 12519
ID #7534718630-8

I do love how he said ESPECIALLY Jet Blue.....I guess he would say Especially United or American Airlines or Southwest too?? lol

#4 is my favorite. "We made a material that if you cover it in ink, it will fail because it's too heavy." That's the dumbest crap ive ever heard.

 

[WYLDGFI]

I know...gotta love 3m and their "support" for us sign makers who use their products. The kicker is it failed where there was NO ink at all too! Just laminated white vinyl. Looking around Im seeing Arlon DPF 6700 as a wall wrap Cast vinyl and thinking this would be a good solution. Other option is DPF 8000 or the Flexcon Billbrd that Mike at Merritt suggested. 180 CV 3 is an option as well...Up to my client at this point!

 

[Rydaddy]

#4 is my favorite. "We made a material that if you cover it in ink, it will fail because it's too heavy." That's the dumbest crap ive ever heard.

And unless I am mistaken... most of the sqft of what was installed had no ink on it. I would also like to know more about why JET BLUE is not suitable for IJ35. We use a lot of IJ35.

 

[ProWraps]

again, as mentioned above by me and another, 180c or regular 180. that wall vinyl WILL fail. 8000 will destroy the wall.

dont look like a fool twice. that gets really expensive.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

again, as mentioned above by me and another, 180c or regular 180. that wall vinyl WILL fail. 8000 will destroy the wall.

dont look like a fool twice. that gets really expensive.

This.

Do not trust vinyl labeled as "wall vinyl", that means it has an almost gummy lower-tack removable adhesive on it. Unless the wall is perfectly finished, glass-smooth and at least semi-gloss if not high-gloss, it's going to do the exact same thing. Don't trust it, it's highly unpredictable. The only thing that's labeled for "wall application" in your situation is Phototex. It's not vinyl, but it will absolutely stay stuck.

If it has to be vinyl, I agree, go with 180C (although frankly I don't even trust that 100%).

 

[WYLDGFI]

My client...whos selling to and installing for jet Blue said yesterday they want a thicker vinyl. I gave them an option of a 2mil cast 180C or whatever other brand they wanted even. We're not going with DPF 8000. Phototex...Im sure it would work....again...they want a "permanent" solution. We will see.