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Major Failure of IJ 35-20

Letterbox Mike

New Member
My client...whos selling to and installing for jet Blue said yesterday they want a thicker vinyl. I gave them an option of a 2mil cast 180C or whatever other brand they wanted even. We're not going with DPF 8000. Phototex...Im sure it would work....again...they want a "permanent" solution. We will see.

Permanent as in it won't come off the wall on it's own or permanent as in a permanent pressure-sensitive adhesive? Phototex doesn't have a "permanent adhesive" (like IJ35 does, by the way), but it won't let loose unless you're pulling it off. But anything, even a high-bond vinyl like DPF8000 or Convex Pitbull will let go of the wall when you give it a tug.

The problem with wall vinyls is they are vinyl, so they're going to expand and contract some. And because they have a low-tack gummy adhesive (supposedly to help it grab and adhere to the texture of painted drywall) in reality over time the expansion and contraction of vinyl (especially laminated vinyl) is going to cause that "wall adhesive" to let go. Frankly the same can be said for a high-performance cast vinyl as well, albeit to a much much lesser extent. That's why I don't trust any true vinyl material on a painted drywall wall, too many variables and too many things moving around to guarantee that adhesive is going to stay put.

Phototex isn't a vinyl, it's a fabric, it does not expand or contract at all, so despite the fact that it's adhesive is "removable" (because low-tack gum-type adhesives like that actually stick to painted drywall very well) it's not going to remove itself from the wall. Case in point: we've got two walls here in our shop that were done on Phototex a little over 5 years ago (as well as a number of customer jobs). Not one is showing any signs whatsoever of letting go of the wall. I've never had a vinyl product last on a wall more than about 18 months, that was 180C and it looked pretty wrinkly at the end of that time. Most true "wall vinyl" products we've tried lasted 6 months to a year tops before we saw lifting.

Another nice feature of Phototex is because it is completely stable you an double-cut the overlapped seams just like wallpaper, so you have a smooth butt joint and no overlaps, and they do not pull apart like they would with vinyl.
 

WYLDGFI

Merchant Member
I know the material...and I agree...great stuff. Where do you get it from??
Oh...and just got the material in from my vendor....5 year old stock!!! So now IM back to square one...and cant even print at the moment. They're working on finding me good material now and getting it to me this morning.
 

Letterbox Mike

New Member
Wow, 5 year old stock??? How old was the IJ35 stock? That could have contributed to your problem too!

We buy Phototex from Fellers, they're the closest distributor to us.

Good luck with this project, it seems like one of those quicksand jobs, no matter what you do you just get stuck deeper and deeper... Ugh, I feel your pain...
 

Custom_Grafx

New Member
I've used avery mpi 2000 with success on walls, but the problem is (as already stated), that you just can't tell all the time because each wall is prepped differently.

So far, the only vinyl I would be comfortable "guaranteeing" is arlon8000. Yes it will destroy the wall though lol. It also drives some installers to insanity.

I haven't tried it, but Concept makes a high tack as well.

Interesting thread and hope the solution is near.
 

WYLDGFI

Merchant Member
FINALLY....we have gotten material in today and am reprinting.
Went with 60in IJ 180 CV 1....60in 8520 Matte overlam. ENTIRE job done on 1 roll of vinyl and 1 roll of lam on my 3360!!!! I do prefer printing on a matte vinyl...but it looks very good on the gloss. If this doesnt work, im going to start fishing for a living!!

My blueberry prints are almost done now!! YAY!!!
 
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HulkSmash

New Member
FINALLY....we have gotten material in today and am reprinting.
Went with 60in IJ 180 CV 1....60in 8520 Matte overlam. ENTIRE job done on 1 roll of vinyl and 1 roll of lam on my 3360!!!! I do prefer printing on a matte vinyl...but it looks very good on the gloss. If this doesnt work, im going to start fishing for a living!!

My blueberry prints are almost done now!! YAY!!!

Again, you should test the wall before printing a whole roll... the wall just may not be suitable. Did you check for moisture coming through the wall....?
 

WYLDGFI

Merchant Member
Nope...I did not test. That is up to my client this time to be sure the wall is ready to be applied to. Have spoken at great lengths with them today I am using advised material per 3m rep...etc etc. They needed to do Their homework for install purposes and I have a feeling that the paint may not be outgassed enough at time of install. They want the prints tomorrow afternoon and I am getting them done. Install timing is up to them after they leave my hands.
BUT....for Future work, we will be testing some other materials along with the Phototex or similar. We're going to paint some drywall and keep in our shops and work with adhesion and durability. Seems they always use the same brand...Ben. Moore Semigloss...in the terminal areas.
 

AdamLarson

New Member
Sounds like IJ35 didn't have the right adhesion for your substrate, hopefully IJ180 works better. As others mentioned, it's important to use a 3M Wall Test Kit to determine the best film to use on a wall.

As we all know, walls can be very difficult to stick to because of the different paint types, textures, need for removal without damaging the wall, etc.. Finding the right film with the right amount of adhesion (not too much, but not too little) can be a bit challenging.

I'm not sure where the "Jet Blue" comment came from, but we do have sales reps responsible for working directly with Brand Owner/End Users to specify what product to use for what application - that rep may have more detailed knowledge of the JetBlue terminals. If you're concerned about whether a vinyl will work on another wall next time, make sure to do the test first.

As always, feel free to contact me with other questions or concerns. Thanks for your support!

Adam Larson, Product Marketer
3M Commercial Graphics
www.3MGraphics.com
 

WYLDGFI

Merchant Member
To put this to rest now. Install happened today in order to allow paint to dry completely....my client wisely took some extra time for that to happen. Used the 180 CV1 and it stuck like glue!!! Apparently they were not ready for the thinner material and almost ruined a panel. All is right with the world of Jet Blue Chicago terminal now. :toasting:
Thanks to everyone for the advice on this!
 
just curious if you sent to JCD they handle all graphics for airports worldwide..

specs are very specific. All wall are ij3552 with 8520 lam ..

if you do not conform you will re do!1

JCdecauxNA.com
 

Nourse1

New Member
what Chris is saying is if the wall is drywall with some junk base coat sprayed on it, it will have a slightly textured matte finish that is difficult to adhere to. The wall should be painted with a semigloss prior to placing new graphics on it. this way the vinyl has a smooth surface to adhere to.

5.1 Paint Surface Definitions
• Flat paints provide a non-reflective surface and they have a porous texture that can hold onto dirt and
make cleaning more difficult. The porous surface of flat paint makes application of Adhesive films
much more difficult due the inability to adhere to the surface. This causes the adhesion of the film to
the painted surface to be greatly reduced causing premature failure of the graphic. This paint finish
is NOT recommended.

This is true for all the Wall graphics I have done a couple of coats of gloss or simi-gloss would help quite a lot. I would suggest letting it outgas as long as you can too. I had oil based gloss paint in my first office had graphics everywhere no failures in over 2 years.
 
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