Mutoh ValueJet

[Just Me]

Before the 1604 I was jobbing out to a couple local weenies but quality issues and vendor <lack of> responsiveness made me take the plunge.

and how would you feel if the person your wholesaleing from takes your art files, your customer and does there work? this is what i have been experiencing. Its becoming more common around here as the business seems to get more cut throat.

 

[jiarby]

and how would you feel if the person your wholesaleing from takes your art files, your customer and does there work? this is what i have been experiencing. Its becoming more common around here as the business seems to get more cut throat.

That vendor would answer to me... just like John Wayne in Chisum!

John Simpson Chisum: Well I don't favor talking to vermin, but I'll talk to you just this once. You're not just getting started. The line's been drawn. What Billy did balanced the books so far. But if one of your men cross my land or even touch one of my cows, or do anything to that store, I'm not going to the sheriff, the governor, or the president of the United States. I'm coming to see you.

Lawrence Murphy: Hmph. Mr. Chisum, that sounds like a threat.

John Simpson Chisum: [John Chisum belts Murphy, knocking him down with his right fist] Wrong word. FACT!

The fact is you have to sign a non-compete agreement with your vendor so later you have a leg to stand on when you are breaking theirs in the back alley behind their shop.

 

[jiarby]

this is just a print only, correct? Not like a 30" Versacamm where you can print and cut

Yes, he means that the PrismJet 48" is a printer but the RIP does print & cut. You would need a cutter that is compatible withe the RIP.

 

[Jim Doggett]

this is just a print only, correct? Not like a 30" Versacamm where you can print and cut.

Correct.

But we striongly advocate a dedicated cutter. It's not only better and more accurate cutting, especially with laminated prints, it's an equipment/productivity saver by orders of magnitude.

Using the printer to cut, when it should be printing is not an efficient workflow. That would be true even if a VersaCAMM could cut anywhere nearly as fast or accurately as a Graphtec with ARMS or Summa with OPOS. But as slowly as VersaCAMM cuts, it just adds insult to injury.

Additionally, wearing out a printer to cut just seems illogical to an extent bordering on foolish. I'd only suggest a print-cut device for a small shops with limited space and volumes ... the same market as ColorCAMM.

MY $0.02,

Jim

 

[ChiknNutz]

Jim, with all due respect, I feel your casting an undue negative light on the V-Camm. Same class as a ColorCamm......paaleeeez! The cutter really isn't as slow as you make it out to be. It could be faster, but at what expense? As a way of comparison, my SummaCut D60 is WAY faster on paper (supposedly 44 ips I think), but I run it at about 1/2 speed (and was told it's a good idea to do so by your previous cohorts). I've found that if I run it close to 2/3 or better, then the cut accuracy is diminished on anything very complex in nature. I can't imagine what a cutter looks like at a full 50 or 60 ips...and I've never ever needed to. The V-camm cutter is about 20 ips, or a tad slower than I run my D60 at.

I'll give you that in an optimized workflow, that a printer and cutter are more efficient, but very rarely have we been bottle-necked due to our V-Camm.

So, let's be realistic on everything, okay?

 

[Just Me]

That vendor would answer to me... just like John Wayne in Chisum!



The fact is you have to sign a non-compete agreement with your vendor so later you have a leg to stand on when you are breaking theirs in the back alley behind their shop.

in reality in todays world, you can't take matter in your owns hands anymore. i do believe in karma though, what goes around will come around!

 

[Just Me]

Correct.

But we striongly advocate a dedicated cutter. It's not only better and more accurate cutting, especially with laminated prints, it's an equipment/productivity saver by orders of magnitude.

Using the printer to cut, when it should be printing is not an efficient workflow. That would be true even if a VersaCAMM could cut anywhere nearly as fast or accurately as a Graphtec with ARMS or Summa with OPOS. But as slowly as VersaCAMM cuts, it just adds insult to injury.

Additionally, wearing out a printer to cut just seems illogical to an extent bordering on foolish. I'd only suggest a print-cut device for a small shops with limited space and volumes ... the same market as ColorCAMM.

MY $0.02,

Jim

thanks for the input, i am weighing out my options.

 

[P Wagner]

I am still getting a kick listening to Jim Doggett extoll the virtues of an inkjet printer (Mutoh in this case) after literally bashing all inkjet platforms (expecially solvent) while working at his former place of employ.

That enjoyment is only exceeded by listening to him praise Graphtec cutting plotters to high heaven, after badmouthing them for years in heated exchanges with one who goes by the initials HK. For what it's worth, I agree with his assessment on Graphtec cutters, as well as the Valuejets from Mutoh (Falcons, not so much).

Bob

 

[anotherdog]

So many threads end with the same comparisons; Roland to Mutoh.
Is there any one who by chance has both who can give a definative review?
(without having to pay for the review).

 

[Jim Doggett]

Hi Bob,

I think and am consistent in my contention that Summa and Graphtec cutters are top notch. Graphtec has better cutting. Summa tracks likes it's on rails. Both have exceptional contour cutting. I extole Graphtec as more for the money inasmuch as Summa's Belgian manufacturing artificially raises its price due the the Euro-Dollar exchange.

Inkjet you got me. Albeit, with the introduction of EcoSolvent and the incredible speed gains made by the top makers, inkjet has far surpassed thermal transfer since Summa introduced its current generation TT machine, which I think was about 7 years back.

BTW, I made the move to Texas and SignWarehouse by choice. I'm not an indentured servant.

I don't wish you any less enjoyment. Nor would I wish you to think me hypocritical. I trust you're not suggesting that. Yeah?

Best,

Jim

I am still getting a kick listening to Jim Doggett extoll the virtues of an inkjet printer (Mutoh in this case) after literally bashing all inkjet platforms (expecially solvent) while working at his former place of employ.

That enjoyment is only exceeded by listening to him praise Graphtec cutting plotters to high heaven, after badmouthing them for years in heated exchanges with one who goes by the initials HK. For what it's worth, I agree with his assessment on Graphtec cutters, as well as the Valuejets from Mutoh (Falcons, not so much).

Bob

 

[Jim Doggett]

Hi GX,

Not class; market. It's a small-shop solution, as a printer-cutter. Get a laminator and a good cutter, and VC is a decent printer. You have your self a workflow. But it's not as fast or good as Mutoh VJ. Add a laminator and cutter to MVJ, you have a better workflow without wasting money on a printer-cutter.

There's some irony between VC and CC. CC was a pretty poor printer, but at least it could cut vinyl. VC is the reverse, I believe. But they're also the reverse in concept: VC is a printer with a cutting head thrown on it; CC was a cutter with a printhead thrown on it.

I think that demonstrates the point better than I ever could. Printers print. Cutters cut. Something that does both does so at the expense of one or the other function.

Best,

Jim

Jim, with all due respect, I feel your casting an undue negative light on the V-Camm. Same class as a ColorCamm......paaleeeez! The cutter really isn't as slow as you make it out to be. It could be faster, but at what expense? As a way of comparison, my SummaCut D60 is WAY faster on paper (supposedly 44 ips I think), but I run it at about 1/2 speed (and was told it's a good idea to do so by your previous cohorts). I've found that if I run it close to 2/3 or better, then the cut accuracy is diminished on anything very complex in nature. I can't imagine what a cutter looks like at a full 50 or 60 ips...and I've never ever needed to. The V-camm cutter is about 20 ips, or a tad slower than I run my D60 at.

I'll give you that in an optimized workflow, that a printer and cutter are more efficient, but very rarely have we been bottle-necked due to our V-Camm.

So, let's be realistic on everything, okay?

 

[jiarby]

You guys can have your hardware flame war, but let me chime in...

One of the reasons I picked the 1604 was because it DIDN'T have a built in cutter. For me it was a workflow question. You print. Then you pull your print and laminate it. Then you load the laminated print back into the printer/cutter to cut it.

My belief at the time of my purchase was that the 1604 was a better printer than the 54" Roland. I also believed that a dedicated Graphtec cutter would perform better and faster than the Roland VC as a cutter.

I cut and print at the same time frequently. This separate hardware solution works for me. If I was on a micro-budget doing under 20K/mo in sales then the All-In-One might be a good solution because you are not running your printer all day just to print.

I don't know anything about a Summa, but every now and then I end up with a job where I need to print white on clear... and the Mutoh won't do that.

 

[Jim Doggett]

...
I cut and print at the same time frequently. This separate hardware solution works for me. If I was on a micro-budget doing under 20K/mo in sales then the All-In-One might be a good solution because you are not running your printer all day just to print.

I don't know anything about a Summa, but every now and then I end up with a job where I need to print white on clear... and the Mutoh won't do that.

Hi Jiarby,

I'm hoping that GX and I are not warring here. I think my remarks were legitimately thought to have equated VersaCAMM and ColorCAMM, which GX rightly points out as absurd. (paraphrazing)

In clarifying my remark to have meant that they are targeted to the same market / type of sign shop, I think it's fair to say that You, GX and I all agree. We all said essentially that, albeit differently.

Is that a fair characterization?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[ToyotaDiesel]

Thanks for posting the new prices Ryan, I think it is great that Mutoh has reduced the price of the 64" ValueJet down to 19K. While this may not be as exciting as Mutoh anouncing a new printer, who can complain about a 4K savings if you were in the market for one.
Anyone need a competitive quote? Give me a call.
Robert Maher
800-328-1306
sales@signagespecialist.com
www.signagespecialist.com

You guys are talking like this is a "new pricing" structure for Mutoh. According to their people on the floor today, these are trade show only pricing. I specifically asked if these prices were good after the show and was told that this was not the new pricing of the units, only for the show.

 

[Jim Doggett]

You can get the same pricing after the show, probably from just about any dealer, including us (we're the largest, and we have the option of PrismJet VJ, which is even more affordable).

But I can't get over the irony of "Show Price." LOL. A dealer puts people on airplanes, rents hall space by the square foot, feeds their staff, buys a bunch of hotel rooms, ships stuff to the show ... and somehow that means they can sell for less????

It doesn't require a lot of deductive reasoning to think that a dealer can match show pricing more easily when they're not paying the high cost of the show.

 

[anotherdog]

...so did the Mutoh prices fall???

 

[SignBurst PCs]

You can get the same pricing after the show, probably from just about any dealer, including us (we're the largest, and we have the option of PrismJet VJ, which is even more affordable).

But I can't get over the irony of "Show Price." LOL. A dealer puts people on airplanes, rents hall space by the square foot, feeds their staff, buys a bunch of hotel rooms, ships stuff to the show ... and somehow that means they can sell for less????

It doesn't require a lot of deductive reasoning to think that a dealer can match show pricing more easily when they're not paying the high cost of the show.

My understanding is that there are some true discounts on equipment at the shows due to the dealer not wanting to transport a used "demo" printer back from the show. This allows for a little more wiggle room than usual as long as the buyer takes the printer home with them or arranges transportation on their own.

I may be way off base as I am no expert in tradeshow logistics. It just made sense to me.

 

[anotherdog]

Ah so no true discounts unless you are at the show pressing flesh?

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Ah so no true discounts unless you are at the show pressing flesh?

Well, it depends on how you look at it. Dealers willingly discount their equipment (demo and non-demo) at the shows in order to encourage you to buy. There is no saying that you couldn't make the same deal away from the show, you just may have to press the unwilling dealer harder to get the "show special" if you are not at the show. That being said, I have seen many dealers refuse to sell at show prices when not at the show. It all depends on the situation.

If I understand correctly, Jim is just saying that just because Sign Warehouse is not at the show doesn't mean that you couldn't get the same deal through them. Although this makes sense in a rational way, the psychology of shoppers at a tradeshow is not always rational. They often save their money in order to prepare to make a purchase, specifically at a tradeshow. This is often based on the idea of "show pricing".

The "true discounts" that I am referring to are on show demo units that the dealer would have the hassle of transporting back and selling as a used unit. It is a double whammy there for the dealer (or manufacturer). When he (or she) gets back, they will almost certainly have to discount the unit because it is used (even for only a short time at the show) and they will have to pay the transportation bill. If they sell the demo unit while at the show, they will still have to discount it in order to sell it, but they don't have all the hassle of taking it back. It is often a great opportunity for a local show "buyer" to grab a great deal that they may not have been able to get otherwise. These types of deals are often very rare though. You really have to be in the right place at the right time as the number of demo units on the show floor is very limited.

 

[Jim Doggett]

My understanding is that there are some true discounts on equipment at the shows due to the dealer not wanting to transport a used "demo" printer back from the show ...

Hi Casey,

That's probably the one exception. There's no freight savings, overall. In fact, freight to the show and union labor to take it in an out of the hall means more money has been spent moving the show model around than would ever be spent shipping it to you from a dealer.

But if after all that added expense it winds up back in the dealer's warehouse, emotion kicks in -- and you can make a really great deal on the show orphan.

Selection is reduced; but if the product is what you've been wanting, bingo. Great deal. And the dealer should be as happy to pay the shipping to you as they would be to ship it home.

Casey nailed it gang. (good post!)

BUY LAST DAY!!