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Naming and shaming

Discussion in 'General Signmaking Topics' started by mark in tx, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. mark in tx

    mark in tx Very Active Member

    Oct 25, 2005
    Harker Heights, Texas
    Screw it!
    I'm tired of getting the run-around and being blown off.

    I have been using Triangle bulk inks since 2006.
    I have been very happy with them for all of that time an I have wholeheartedly recommended their bulk inks to anyone that has posted here asking about them.
    Check my history.

    This is the situation.

    I run the Triangle MLD inks on a Roland SP-540V, and a Roland XC-540.
    The SP-540 since 2006, and the XC-540 since 2008.
    I have had both machines professionally profiled for use with these inks.
    Last September (2011) One of the Cyan heads failed on the XC-540.
    I run CMYKCM on the XC540.
    I had it replaced at my own expense.
    The head had 2.6 billion shots, normal lifespan is 6 billion.
    I contacted Inx Digital which manufacters the Triangle inks and followed their process for a warranty claim.
    I sent them test print samples and ink samples.
    They told me nothing was wrong with the ink, no warranty help from them.
    In February (2012) the other Cyan head failed with 2.7 billion shots.
    I contacted the technical department about filing another claim. They asked me for photos of the test print which I emailed to them.
    After 1 week I called the technician to check on my status. He said he did not get the emailed photos.
    I emailed them again while I was on the phone with him.
    He said he would get back with me.
    Throughout March and April, I called and emailed but got no replies.

    Phone calls would always go to voice mail, and emails were never returned.

    I tried to speak to any higher ups at the company, but the secretary answering would not give me names of any supervisors, management, or executive level people. Always sent me to voice mail, and no one will call back.

    On 15 May, a sales rep from the company was brought to my shop by a supplier sales rep.
    I explained the issues I am having. I showed him test prints from before and after the head replacements, I showed him copies of correspondence.
    He told me he would get the right people involved and that this is not how his company treats their customers. He asked that I give him time to get back to California from his sales trip and would get things set straight.
    He refused to make specific promises as to what would be done for me.

    I waited 2 weeks and called him, he told me that he was working on my problem and that the least he would get me some ink and filters for the system at no cost. He has ignored my calls and voice mails since then.

    Last month, (July) guess which head went bad on my SP-540V?
    If you guessed the head that has Cyan you would be correct.
    It had 4.2 billion shots.
    Still under the expected lifespan of 6 billion shots.

    Guess who has ignored my calls and emails about this latest head failure with Cyan ink?

    If you guessed Inx Digital, makers of Triangle inks, you would be correct.

    So far this has cost me $4050.00 to replace the heads which use Triangle MLD Cyan ink in the past year, the company tested their own ink 1 time, told me I was out of luck and then ignored me for the other 2 heads that have gone bad using their ink.

    I am tired of this total lack of concern on their part, and I feel it is time that I let other members here know about my experience.

  2. CS-SignSupply-TT

    CS-SignSupply-TT Very Active Member

    May 31, 2011
  3. ChicagoGraphics

    ChicagoGraphics Major Contributor

    Feb 27, 2007
    What makes you so sure it's the ink that's causing you these problems. Did you ever think that the heads you are buying are the cause?
  4. threeputt

    threeputt Very Active Member

    Mar 10, 2006
    washington state
    Hmmmm...that's good question. And why only the Cyan inks as the supposedly defective product? Not any of the other 5 colors?

    Not minimizing your story, the stress level and ultimately that enormous parts bill you've edured.

    But I suppose the company is not going to own up and admit it's their problem when it could be other issues.

    Comes down to this:
    Is there any talk on this board or on other forums about this company's Cyan ink? Surely other heads must be failing if it's due to the ink.

    Gather other's input. Strength in numbers, etc.
  5. anotherdog

    anotherdog Very Active Member

    Sep 6, 2008
    I certainly won't be moving to Triangle Inks if that is the level of support. The issue with head failiure aside, this will cost them.
  6. CanuckSigns

    CanuckSigns Very Active Member

    Nov 11, 2008
    Out of curiosity, has anyone who is running a third party ink and experienced issues like the OP ever been successful in getting the ink company to pay for repairs to their printer?

    I run OEM ink, mainly because I don't print enough to justify switching. The OP's situation is exactly how I envision all warantee claims going with third party ink, am i correct? The ink maker blames faulty heads, the printer manufacturer blames low quality ink, the sign shop pays in the end.
  7. gnemmas

    gnemmas Active Member

    Nov 7, 2006
    You could easily saved $5,000 per year on inks by using third party inks. In 4 years, that is $20,000. Here is your warranty.

    By the way, does OEM inks has warranty on your printheads after printer warranty expiration?
  8. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

    Jun 7, 2006

    If you go a little further, that comes out to about $13.00 a day.... or $1.50 an hour.

    The main reason I stay with OEM inks and just about anything else is..... the 3rd party inks may NOT use the same ingredients in their inks, so they must change the recipe somewhere along the line... adding a little more of this or a little less of that. Therefore, inks might work well in the beginning, but the wear and tear on your equipment, may suffer...... and sometimes at a tremendous amount.

    Any 3rd party anything, must warn you against ruining things. It will be in writing somewhere, but they'll deny your having to bother with it, because the only way they make money is to sell you something that isn't 100% made for your machine.

    For most printing equipment manufacturers, the ink is developed first and then the machine is built around those specs. Therefore, the ingredients you put through your $15,000..... $50,000....... or $250,000 machine is critical. Wanna play around with your livelihood for a whopping savings of $13.00 a day.... be my guest.

    We've gone through many machines over the years and not one was ever re-sold with any kind of defects. We take care of our machines and we baby them as much as possible and when I hear all the problems so many here have..... and then times that by the number of people not even on this site...... it adds up to big business when you screw around with the workings of a well oiled machine for saving a few pennies. Knock on wood, but we haven't suffered near the problems many here have. I don't know why or how, but I do know we do everything we can by the book. Maybe it costs us a little more in the long-run and you guys might save some money when buying supplies, but again, as I've said so many times.... all these costs are paid by the end-user anyway, so who really is saving ??
  9. CanuckSigns

    CanuckSigns Very Active Member

    Nov 11, 2008
    Was this directed at me? I'm going to assume it was.

    I can't save $5000 per year, because I don't spend even close to that on OEM inks in a year, like I said, I don't print a ton of stuff, I understand if I was running huge volume, third party inks would be the way to go, and if you loose a print head here or there along the way, it's kind of expected.

    My Question was if anyone has actually had a third party ink manufacturer step up and say "sorry our bad, we will replace any parts on your printer that got messed up because of our ink" when you had an issue such as the OP posted about.

    As for your question about if OEM inks offer any type of warentee after the initial 1 or 2 year warantee runs out, I'm not sure, but I would think that if the manufacturer rates the printhead for 6 billion hits, and it fails after 2 billion, and you used OEM ink, you are at least cutting out the finger pointing and are 1 step closer to getting something done. i could be completely wrong on this though.
  10. Gene@mpls

    Gene@mpls Very Active Member

    Jun 17, 2003
    Blaine, Mn
    I have used Triangle MLD heavily since Feb 2006 in 2 Rolands with only one
    head failure (black). My tech always remarks that the head prints look as good
    as he has seen. Both CMYK printers tho. Gene
  11. gnemmas

    gnemmas Active Member

    Nov 7, 2006
    Watson, it wasn't directed to you.

    OP has two printers. The savings on ink should be substantial. In choosing third party inks, part of the savings should more than compensate the heads.

    In my experience with third party inks with Mutoh and Mimaki, no obvious evidence of premature printhead failure. I really enjoy the $$$ saved.
  12. rjssigns

    rjssigns Premium Subscriber

    Jun 4, 2007
    Home Office
    This is not isolated to ink or a lot of other stuff we use in our shops or daily lives.
    The sales reps will blow smoke and tell you whatever it takes to get you to buy. Always promising iron clad warranties and never delivering.

    Ink "pushers" warranties aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

    All they want to hear is that your check cleared. Call with a problem and it's F--- YOU!

    I gave up trying to warn people about cheap ink. Now I laugh every time someone comes on here whining that their printer quit after using non OEM ink.

    p.s. Save it. I don't care.
  13. Fatboy

    Fatboy Very Active Member

    For most printing equipment manufacturers, the ink is developed first and then the machine is built around those specs.

    I am not so sure about that statement Gino. Can you back it up?
  14. boxerbay

    boxerbay Active Member

    Nov 25, 2010
    Darkside of the Moon
    this is true. the printer business model is about delivering ink and media. that is where the money is at. the hardware is a delivery system for the ink and media they develop. why do you think printer prices are dropping and rebates galore?
  15. ThinkRight

    ThinkRight Active Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    Atlanta Ga
    I think I read it here a while back...
    Printers are just Ink vending machines !!!
  16. rjssigns

    rjssigns Premium Subscriber

    Jun 4, 2007
    Home Office
    Basic business. It is called "installed base". It works even better when you are the only ones that have the patents. I built equipment that was sold at or below cost, mostly below. Why? To get a large installed base, and we also made the proprietary "product" that it used. It had a minimum 3000% mark-up which in turn grew to nearly 4000%.
    The percentages are not a typo.
  17. SightLine

    SightLine Very Active Member

    I can't help but wonder if maybe some issue with the printer is maybe over-volting that head? Could very well be an ink issue as well though. I'll say this, I did have an unrelated problem with their ink - cartridges that were failing to flag as empty when they ran out. What finally got resolution for me was getting loud enough with the right people. Namely Ken mentioned already earlier and the president of my supplier, Frank F. In the end I was very well taken care of but it did take a fairly nasty email cc'd to both of them to get taken care of.
  18. thewood

    thewood Very Active Member

    Dec 28, 2005
    Mark in TX, did you ever get any resolution to your issue(s)?

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