* Need to find true black ink *

[signswi]

a) Most of the comments here are accurate, you need to be in a fully profiled environment, that will fix any issues that are fixable with your process/equipment limitations (other than education on the subject).

b) You can't expect pure-tone b&w giclee results from a CMYK solvent machine, they're different beasts.

c) You are correct, black inks have tones, usually green, they're almost never pure. That's why pure-toned grayscale giclee printing is the hardest and most expensive type of photo printing and is a super specialized niche. Proper calibration will help but you'll never come close to a b&w specialized giclee printer running carbon inks--and even if you converted your machine over to a b&w inkset (PiezeoTone maybe) you'd lose the ability to do any color on that machine.

 

[routierracing]

In design school I am constantly hearing that book printers use rich black c100 m100 y100 k100. Has anyone applied this to vinyl printing? Seems like a heck of a waste of ink.

 

[marcsitkin]

The light source you evaluate your prints under will also change the perceived color of the inks. They may look fine in daylight, greenish under fluorescent, and warm under tungsten.

You will be better off using an aqueous printer set up with grey inks, or a solution like True Black and White' from BowHaus.

Unfortunately, what you are trying to do isn't as simple as it may seem.

 

[tbaker]

man, I wish I had joined sooner, this would have been an awesome conversation to get in on. Many unanswered questions are you using RGB images ( subtractive color) or CMYK images ( additive color)? Which Rip software are you using? Are you using GCR/UCR, what is your black generation composition set to?

While I agree black is seldom black, it's most often close enough. Large format printers were never intended to produce museum quality prints, and yet, they've come leaps and bounds over the past 20 odd years. The ink itself has been reformulated more times then can be remembered in the past 10 years. If you don't like what your ink gives you today, wait a month, I'm sure it will change again. ( not to sound trite)

Think of it this way, you see in RGB, you print in CMYK. CMYK can only hit (approx) 90% of what your eye can see. You build on white, using black as a building block. Your eyes see in 3 dimensions, you print in 2. Trying to hit as many colors as possible, you dither your ink pattern, never hitting 1 color accurately, but giving a close approximation to many. At the end of the day, if you want true, continuous tone, there's only one way.

Cut film. because film captures RGB color space and can accurately reflect what they eye sees.

 

[SideFX]

If you don't like what your ink gives you today, wait a month, I'm sure it will change again.

Yes, so true.
Attached is an image of a file that was printed months back, and once again tonight. Same machine, same profile, same image, same everything.
The 'blend' used to make the black ink is absolutely inconsistent and pathetic.
And yes, I tried adjustments, tinkering with profiles, settings, RGB, grayscale, CMYK etc...same results and will never be.

 

[kffernandez]

the mere fact that ink suppliers [both oem and third party] ask us to gently shake the ink during installation means that there is and will always be differences in color over time due to settling. all we can hope for is that the margin of difference be minimal.

also, inks do have expiration dates. third party seems to be a bit more lax at following it than the oems.

for me, these are just a few basic reasons why i can't really guarantee color over time. except right after profiling. and still, up to only a certain degree.

 

[SideFX]

I shake my oem tanks at least once a week, if not twice. Hasn't changed anything however.
In fact, I recall a time where it was a red tinge rather than green that would show through. Our files are digital, remain unchanged, yet have to adapt to the inconsistencies from the manufacturer. Wish they could come up with a remedy.

 

[kffernandez]

i would like to shake the cartridges as often as possible as well. i personally just do it about every month or so. but it's frustrating that the manual teaches us not to touch the inks once you put them in - in order to avoid air getting into the lines. yet we know that we have to shake it one way or another to get the ink back in line...

catch 22's. sigh.

 

[Locals Find!]

Try to print your black with what is known as a printers black mix. C 40 M 20 Y 20 K 100

Alternatively you can use C 60 M 40 Y 40 K 100

Its an old offset printers mix. Been around over a hundred years.

Don't see why it shouldn't work for you.

 

[Locals Find!]

In design school I am constantly hearing that book printers use rich black c100 m100 y100 k100. Has anyone applied this to vinyl printing? Seems like a heck of a waste of ink.

That is not a rich black thats just a mess use c40 m20 y20 k100 never all 100.

As a trained offset printer don't ever use that much ink will lead to cracking and chipping on the substrate i.e. vinyl, card stock etc...

 

[Gino]

Many good facts being thrown around.

Someone said... paint is not ink. That's one of the most important points. You are working with translucent inks, not pigmented paints.... which brings to mind another poster's comment.....aqueous printers with their pigmented inks do seem to work much better for this application. We had a CJ 500 and it printed absolutely perfect blacks. We could get your blue blacks, red blacks and pure jet blacks. It also printed at a much higher dpi for artistic renderings and gave us perfect colors every time.

Your black 'problem' is going to continue to be a problem because you're going to have to find the right mixture for each and every media you put through. You have some long nights awaiting you.

To fix it quickly, I think you need to invest in a machine that is set up for your specific needs or as bob said.... give into the premature baldness and start fine tuning the one you have.

 

[anotherdog]

This issue has been around for a long time in the litho print world. Thats why you see color balanced viewing stations and spectrometers for sampling color density.

The fact is it will always be a compromise. You print on your machine (that has a bias) you view under lighting (that has a bias) with human eyes (also biased). Your color perception changes during the day, even with blood pressure and glucose changes.

In the end you are producing art/signage for a customer who usually has only seen your proof on a very biased computer screen (additive light). You print on a subtractive media and it HAS to change.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just like trying to hit a flea with a hammer, you are going to miss more than you hit.

In the end you have to print hard copy proof on the output machine and get sign-off on that.

I have the same issues myself, often end up tweaking curves in the file or the rip to get the best greyscale result, then running outside to look at it in daylight.

 

[SideFX]

Q:
Are the Roland ink tanks filled under vacuum?
Can they be refilled?

 

[mark galoob]

ive been printing with digital machines for about 6 yrs now...i dont believe what you are trying to accomplish is possible. in fact when my customers start getting finicky about color matching, i tell them the same thing and if they are not happy about it they can be on their way...i have spent hours and lots of grey hairs trying to get good color match on digital printers. ive used toner, solevent ink, ink from duplicater ink....what you are trying to accomplish with your printer is NOT possible. you might get it once after hours and hours, and next time you try, humidity will be different, or temp will be different, and you will get a different color tone.

mark galoob

 

[SideFX]

Well I have tried, a lot of changes, gasp.................
I have attached a couple sample sets of a black & white gradient.
Tried a variety of setting, profiles, tweaks, 52 times to get something that will be acceptable. I see now that just about each file that has a B&W theme to it will have to be calibrated, otherwise, full colour printing is just fine.
I did end up injecting ink into an empty cartridge.
Thanks for the help

 

[Fitch]

Everything aside.... profiles, RGB, CMYK, manufacturer etc etc...

I believe that there is no TRUE black on the market. I also believe that this is a cost versus pigment issue.

The only true way to get the BEST results you are after is to test. But let me assure you, that it is MY OPINION (so don't scream me down) that once the UV starts to take effect - over time your blacks will be green. Not a good foundation for fine art. Otherwise expect customers / clients to be hammering down your door in about 12 months indoor - even fluroescent tubes emit UV rays.

I don't know what you are printing on but even the manufacturer, storage, makeup of the product ( vinyl, canvas etc), the moisture content, the product ingredients, humidity, air and ink temp, even air pressure and altitude can all effect the product, medium, and process which is going to be determined by one final critique - the way it looks.

You are correct in saying that EACH file will have to be adjusted to maintain consistency to your eye, as all digital cameras are calibrated differently, the image processed differently, and each shot encoded differently according to light conditions etc.

Haven't checked but I am not even sure if there are any strictly B & W digital cameras on the market.


All said, has anyone EVER see a digital print NOT fade to green and remain black over time?

Cheers - G

 

[SideFX]

I have actually had great success with the Orajet and Oraguard brands over time.
Have 4 jet skis, and the graphics on two of them have been on for 3 years now.
In the sun, on the lake, all summer long, then through the brittle cold winters.
No fading, no peeling as of yet. Still in great condition.
In fact, the lower portions which are submerged (with graphics) have also stayed on, even at 70mph. Gas spill? (happens from time to time) No problem, runs right off.
So whatever I have going on, has so far stood the test of time.

 

[pgettys]

for roland the darkest black you will find is 75,67,68,90 ...

 

[flossybach]

True black ink for Roland

Hi
we have been using the Roland SP540i for printing heat sealed vinyl for apparel and have noticed that the black is not as black as the apparel.

We also had the same issues with printing out moody photographs onto canvas. The subtleness of the picture was completely lost. I did some research into why this might happen, and I am now convinced that it is part of the limitations of the ecosolvent cmyk inks. In order to print fine art (giclee) I think you need a larger gamut of colours and the pigment printers seem to do that. They are also much less expensive.
does anyone have an epson or equiv that could comment?
Also it might seem like a stupid question but how does one profile the screen with the printer and versaworks?
This is a great thread. I have learnt heaps just by lurking.

Flossybach

 

[haxomania]

Hi
we have been using the Roland SP540i for printing heat sealed vinyl for apparel and have noticed that the black is not as black as the apparel.

We also had the same issues with printing out moody photographs onto canvas. The subtleness of the picture was completely lost. I did some research into why this might happen, and I am now convinced that it is part of the limitations of the ecosolvent cmyk inks. In order to print fine art (giclee) I think you need a larger gamut of colours and the pigment printers seem to do that. They are also much less expensive.
does anyone have an epson or equiv that could comment?
Also it might seem like a stupid question but how does one profile the screen with the printer and versaworks?
This is a great thread. I have learnt heaps just by lurking.

Flossybach

In VersaWorks choose quality-color management-sign&display.